These errors continue

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed, sin is not specific to one ethnicity.

yeppers

 

[All Becomes New]

Patriarch Bartholomew is the seniormost bishop in the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archbishop Elpidophorus is the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in North America, which is part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Patriarch higher and bishop lower?

 

[The Liturgist]

Patriarch higher and bishop lower?

At least in terms of seniority and precedence, and perhaps in the Church of Constantinople, actual authority. As a general rule however all Orthodox bishops are equal and in most jurisdictions the Patriarch cannot, for example, intrude in the diocese of a brother bishop, being first among equals and not first without equals. Part of the controversy with Archbishop Elpidophorus is that when he was Metropolitan of Bursa, he published a paper stating that the Ecumenical Patriarch was first without equals and had certain powers which as far as I can tell the EP actually does not have; the only powers the EP has in theory that other Orthodox bishops might lack is the ability to hear appeals under Canon XXVIII of Chalcedon, although in that respect, when the Church of Antioch petitioned him due to concerns that the Church of Jerusalem was infringing on their ecclesiastical territory as guaranteed by the ancient canons, such as Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, the Ecumenical Patriarch did not do anything, which resulted in Antioch suspending full communion with the EP (although they are still indirectly in communion by virtue of being in communion with other Orthodox churches which in turn are in communion with the EP). Likewise, before the tragedy in the Ukraine began, the Moscow Patriarchate broke communion with the EP due to the EP’s involvement in setting up the Orthodox Church in Ukraine in opposition to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphrius, who is under the Moscow Patriarchate.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way with regards to the political disturbances in the church, please pray for the bishops and pray for unity. There are enough schisms already; we don’t need these new schisms that have emerged in the past decade among the canonical churches. When I first joined the Orthodox Church there were no schisms between the major canonical jurisdictions, which lead to remarks of a predictable nature among Old Calendarists about “World Orthodoxy” and ecumenism, in particular, ROCOR having reunited with the MP was an issue I inadvertently got caught up in when I made the mistake of attending a parish that had been ROCOR, that had broken away and joined an Old Calendarists jurisdiction after the reunification in 2007 but had somehow managed to retain the beautiful building, and this lead to some awkwardness.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Patriarch higher and bishop lower?

only in terms of honor and history, not of authority. the first place of Constantinople is within the bishopric, and not above his brother bishops.

 

[truefiction1]

I think there IS a problem specific to the US about the Greek Church in the US, money, and its special influence.

I know that my mother encountered a Greek parish in CA where money decided an awful lot, and the worldliness and prioritizing of promoting Greek culture (for $$$) over promoting the Gospel to Americans was a factor in her turning to Islam in the last years of her life.

Its an aside, but I strongly suspect that Greek money is part of what leads AF Ministries to pursue policies that they do and promote speakers that they shouldn’t.

Not surprised.

 

[All Becomes New]

only in terms of honor and history, not of authority. the first place of Constantinople is within the bishopric, and not above his brother bishops.

Thank you for the clarification @ArmyMatt!

 

[truefiction1]

I'd always be very cautious when accepting any prophecy without a clear statement of who said it and where/when they said it. There are too many prophecies that seem to be made up later and then put into the mouths of some earlier person.

Yes, this is an unfortunate fact.

 

[All Becomes New]

By the way with regards to the political disturbances in the church, please pray for the bishops and pray for unity. There are enough schisms already; we don’t need these new schisms that have emerged in the past decade among the canonical churches. When I first joined the Orthodox Church there were no schisms between the major canonical jurisdictions, which lead to remarks of a predictable nature among Old Calendarists about “World Orthodoxy” and ecumenism, in particular, ROCOR having reunited with the MP was an issue I inadvertently got caught up in when I made the mistake of attending a parish that had been ROCOR, that had broken away and joined an Old Calendarists jurisdiction after the reunification in 2007 but had somehow managed to retain the beautiful building, and this lead to some awkwardness.

That all sounds very complicated and my tiny brain cannot make sense of it all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for the clarification @ArmyMatt!

no problem!

 

[All Becomes New]

That all sounds very complicated and my tiny brain cannot make sense of it all.

Apologies. I thought I quoted this:

At least in terms of seniority and precedence, and perhaps in the Church of Constantinople, actual authority. As a general rule however all Orthodox bishops are equal and in most jurisdictions the Patriarch cannot, for example, intrude in the diocese of a brother bishop, being first among equals and not first without equals. Part of the controversy with Archbishop Elpidophorus is that when he was Metropolitan of Bursa, he published a paper stating that the Ecumenical Patriarch was first without equals and had certain powers which as far as I can tell the EP actually does not have; the only powers the EP has in theory that other Orthodox bishops might lack is the ability to hear appeals under Canon XXVIII of Chalcedon, although in that respect, when the Church of Antioch petitioned him due to concerns that the Church of Jerusalem was infringing on their ecclesiastical territory as guaranteed by the ancient canons, such as Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, the Ecumenical Patriarch did not do anything, which resulted in Antioch suspending full communion with the EP (although they are still indirectly in communion by virtue of being in communion with other Orthodox churches which in turn are in communion with the EP). Likewise, before the tragedy in the Ukraine began, the Moscow Patriarchate broke communion with the EP due to the EP’s involvement in setting up the Orthodox Church in Ukraine in opposition to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphrius, who is under the Moscow Patriarchate.

 

[The Liturgist]

Apologies. I thought I quoted this:

Forgive me. What I was saying is that we do not want these new schisms in the church, so please pray for the unity of the Orthodox bishops.

I was also saying that when I joined the Orthodox Church, these schisms had not yet formed, and their formation has been distressing.

 

[All Becomes New]

Forgive me. What I was saying is that we do not want these new schisms in the church, so please pray for the unity of the Orthodox bishops.

I was also saying that when I joined the Orthodox Church, these schisms had not yet formed, and their formation has been distressing.

Ah. I am not Orthodox. I am non-denom.

If I was going to give a comment, if you would allow me, I do not know what the will of God is in this matter. I recall a thought I had when I had PMed @ArmyMatt about something that that would be the start of the downfall of the EO church. I do not have that thought anywhere documented.

Unity is good, but sometimes we have to suffer for our faith to be forged in the fire. I cannot say what will happen with the EO church. Whether my thought at the time I talked to Matt is of any value, I do not know.

One thing that comes to mind as I say these things is that after the Holocaust of Nazi Germany Israel became a sovereign nation.

 

[All Becomes New]

BTW this was around the beginning of 2021.

I will say that Christ is still head of His church and we can rest in that.

 

[E.C.]

Personally, I found myself repelled by all the protestant individualism in the Church first by the leftist “progressive” believers with their faux “living Tradition”, and then by the radical conservatives ready to identify the Church with Stalinism and/or Sergianism, elevating national concerns to BE the concerns of the Church, and to punish dissent with that. It is a small miracle that I have not walked away from the Church altogether. Now my hope is that some of the faithful will remain faithful, that I will see others ready to accept our ancient Tradition and not seek to “correct” it.

AMEN!

Personally, I find both radical camps equally disturbing.

By the way with regards to the political disturbances in the church, please pray for the bishops and pray for unity. There are enough schisms already; we don’t need these new schisms that have emerged in the past decade among the canonical churches. When I first joined the Orthodox Church there were no schisms between the major canonical jurisdictions, which lead to remarks of a predictable nature among Old Calendarists about “World Orthodoxy” and ecumenism, in particular, ROCOR having reunited with the MP was an issue I inadvertently got caught up in when I made the mistake of attending a parish that had been ROCOR, that had broken away and joined an Old Calendarists jurisdiction after the reunification in 2007 but had somehow managed to retain the beautiful building, and this lead to some awkwardness.

I am in full agreement here for the need for unity. As the Western World rips apart its moral fiber it would help if we Orthodox could ever speak with one voice against it. But, how can we be taken seriously when we have overlapping jurisdictions all over the place and can barely keep our own house in order?

only in terms of honor and history, not of authority. the first place of Constantinople is within the bishopric, and not above his brother bishops.

Adding to this, in spite of the erroneous reporting by American and European media, the Ecumenical Patriarch is NOT the head of the Orthodox Church. He is not an "Orthodox Pope" no matter how much he is trying to make himself one.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Adding to this, in spite of the erroneous reporting by American and European media, the Ecumenical Patriarch is NOT the head of the Orthodox Church. He is not an "Orthodox Pope" no matter how much he is trying to make himself one.

and will never be one

 

[ArmyMatt]

If I was going to give a comment, if you would allow me, I do not know what the will of God is in this matter. I recall a thought I had when I had PMed @ArmyMatt about something that that would be the start of the downfall of the EO church. I do not have that thought anywhere documented.

I don’t remember, but I will say there will be no downfall of the Orthodox Church.

 

[rusmeister]

I think the chief heresy (the right word for error inside the Church) of our time, one that is absolutely central in causing the divisions, and the greatest threat in the Church today (as far as heresies are concerned) is the one I outlined in the other thread on corrective baptism, which I am tempted to call neo-gnosticism, in which a person thinks they know better than the Church, in which their own personal vision of what is good, right, and true trumps patristic consensus. This results in people thinking all kinds of things to be compatible with Holy Tradition which in fact are not. The humility and readiness to accept correction is completely absent.

I suppose there are plenty of things that doesn’t affect, though as an obvious example of things that it does, most of you know that for years I have been speaking about human sexuality, as Church teaching sets a very high standard on how we ought to live, and we don’t in fact live that way, and the heresy results in us justifying the choices and stands that we have made and taken rather than try to align our lives aiming towards what the Church calls us to. And because, in that self-justification we reject the call to strive for holiness, we make the Faith unbelieveable to the outside world, and even to fellow Orthodox, causing them at times to fall away, and we don’t see how that heresy causes we ourselves to fall away.

I think the heresy arises from the excessive emphasis the modern Western world in particular places on individualism and freedom, as well as on love at the expense of truth, leading to a “freedom” not to accept unpleasants truths, part of the Truth meant to make us free, which in fact results in slavery to sin.
“Speaking the truth in love”. Some of us love truth so much that we become unloving, while others love love so much, that they become untruthful.

 

[All Becomes New]

I don’t remember, but I will say there will be no downfall of the Orthodox Church.

Whatever the feeling was that I experiences, whether true or not, it was not due at all to anything you said. I just wanted to get that in the open so people don't get the wrong idea.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Whatever the feeling was that I experiences, whether true or not, it was not due at all to anything you said. I just wanted to get that in the open so people don't get the wrong idea.

I just chimed in for any lurkers.