There's something about Mary.......

[PilgrimToChrist]

What St. Paul says of himself is necessarily more applicable to her who actually formed Christ in her womb. All the elect must be formed in the womb of the Mother of God.

We are not formed in the womb of Mary. We are formed in the womb of our own mother.

And St. Paul, right?

You seem to have the same confusion as Nicodemus...

Mary has nothing to do with our new birth in Christ. For this comes from the Father.

Christ is born of Mary, if we are to be members of Christ, we must also be born of Mary. There is no such thing as a mother who gives birth to the Head but not the members nor a member of the Body who has a different mother than the Head.

As St. Cyprian said, "No one has God for a Father who has not the Church for his Mother." So likewise, it is true that "No one has God for a Father who has not Mary for his Mother." If Mary was not necessary for salvation, Christ would not have given her to us as our mother.

I will quote at length from de Montfort

I do not even know who de Montfort is. Why would I listen to him over what the scriptures attest to?

Does it matter who St. Louis Marie de Montfort is? It is the same as if I gave the same exposition on the Scriptures as he does, except that you can be assured that de Montfort's words are representative of orthodox Catholic Mariology, with mine you must be more skeptical. Since you clearly reject de Montfort's exposition on the Scriptures and say that the Scriptures refute him, would you please give evidence of that rather than vague accusations? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

MamaZ makes a good point here....Anglican says one thing while Pligrim says another...

Anglian says that we do not see Mary as a goddess, I said that Mary is only a goddess in so much as Christ said "you are gods":

The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Christ is quoting Psalm 81:

I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.

Yet the Psalmist continues:

But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes

We are created like gods, we have the powers of creation (as the priest yesterday noted, that is why women should wear veils) and authority. We have the will of a god in the body of a beast and sentenced to die. In the words of the esteemed poet Bruce Dickinson:

Tell me why I had to be a powerslave
I don't wanna die, I'm a god,
Why can't I live on?
When the life giver dies,
All around is laid waste,
And in my last hour,
I'm a slave to the power of death.

That is why we create stories of gods as "men writ large" (in the words of Feuerbach). Yet there is a God, a true myth, who writes in strokes even more dramatic than the great playwrights, whose teachings are more brilliant than the Platonists. Odin gave up his eye and was pierced on the World Tree, our God gave up His life, pierced on the Tree. Odin did it for his own wisdom and edification, our God did it for us. No pagan myth is as dramatic as the Christian, no pagan feast as joyous as a Christian one, no pagan sacrifice as glorious as the Christian one.

But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us.

But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

I also said that some have misunderstood Christ's words (LDS comes to mind...) and so that it is best to say simply that Mary is the most exalted creature in all of Creation. Mary, by her nature, is infinitely lower than God, of course.

With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, "I am he who is".

Mary, by grace, however, is completely subsumed in Christ such that she can apply to herself fully the words of St. Paul, And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. (Gal 2:20a).

It is the heresy of the serpent to say:

No, you shall not die the death. For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

And what happened? Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to her husband. The second part of the serpent's assertion was true, their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil (in particular, evil, as they were already acquainted with good).

And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.

But what else? The serpent lied in the first part, Eve knew quite well what God had said, yet she chose to listen to the serpent who denied the words of God and thus is the result (as we were recently reminded at Ash Wednesday):

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

Yet, in a sense, the serpent did not tell a lie since God redeemed His people from eternal death, sin and the devil through the Cross, as was prophesied in the Protoevangelium:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

We even go so far as to call the sin of Adam and Eve, "felix culpa" ("happy fault"):

O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem

O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer.

So, in the end, the serpent was right? Wrong. It is true that man is no longer subject to eternal death and that our eyes are opened to the distinction between good and evil and that we shall be as gods. All those things are true in and of themselves, yet the lie -- the heresy -- is more subtle. It is a question of obedience and order. In order to be be as gods, we must conform our will to the Will of the One God and crucify our own desires. We are not to become gods independent of God, we are to be come gods in God.

Only the One God is God by nature, we become gods by Grace. Thus our status is dependent on God, even our mere existence is dependent not only on a single act of Creation but the continual, active, sustaining act of God. That is why only God can be accorded divine worship and sacrifice. We venerate the saints, especially Our Lady, because we venerate God in them and them in God. By being close to God, the saints take on the communicable attributes of God but not the incommunicable attributes or, in the terms of St. Gregory Palamas, the energies but not the essence of God. Through reception of the Sacraments and conforming our life to that of Christ, we advance along this Ladder of Divine Ascent, until we too reach Heaven and the divine state.

This is the Mystery of Salvation. This is why Christ came to Earth. This is why Man was created.

 

[Anglian]

In an effort for my understanding could you briefly describe what theosisi is and what is the end result of it?
thanks for the welcome, not sure how long i'll stick around working on some discipleship programs that may constitute more of my energies. Nice to see you as well ang.

As briefly as I can. here goes.

We are made in God's image. That image is marred by the effects of sin, and at times it is hard even to see it. But the purpose of the Christian life is to scrape away at the dirt and grime which mars the image of God in us. Through our baptism, through being sealed as His, and through our living a Christian life, and through the sacraments, that image can be progressively revealed. For us partaking of the Eucharist - having Christ in us - is a crucial part of this life long process.

We do not hold that full theosis can be achieved in this life, but it is, we hope and trust, what we shall be raised to when our sinful bodies will be made like unto His sinless one when we rise again at the Last.

Hope your discipleship programmes go well.

peace,

Anglian

 

[simonthezealot]

We do not hold that full theosis can be achieved in this life, but it is, we hope and trust, what we shall be raised to when our sinful bodies will be made like unto His sinless one when we rise again at the Last.

Hope your discipleship programmes go well.

peace,

Anglian

So theosis is regarding the body (sarx) only? or the complete human nature? body and spirit.

 

[Anglian]

So theosis is regarding the body (sarx) only? or the complete human nature? body and spirit.

No, it would be both.

peace,

Anglian

 

[prodromos]

In an effort for my understanding could you briefly describe what theosisi is and what is the end result of it?

The end result is that there is no end result. Since God is infinite by nature, our becoming like God is a process which can never end.

John

 

[simonthezealot]

The end result is that there is no end result. Since God is infinite by nature, our becoming like God is a process which can never end.

John

Out curiosity is there scriptural basis for believing this continues infinetly, to us?

 

[simonthezealot]

So theosis is regarding the body (sarx) only? or the complete human nature? body and spirit.

So we continue becoming more and more God-like?
or more and more of a god?

 

[Anglian]

So we continue becoming more and more God-like?
or more and more of a god?

Dear Simon,

For us, this is a mystery the truth of which we shall know one day. Since we are made in His image, it seems right and proper that our ultimate fate is to have the image fully restored.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

And St. Paul, right?


I don't believe I am understanding you here..


You seem to have the same confusion as Nicodemus...

Actually not really. For He asked how a man when He was old could crawl back into the womb..

Christ is born of Mary, if we are to be members of Christ, we must also be born of Mary. There is no such thing as a mother who gives birth to the Head but not the members nor a member of the Body who has a different mother than the Head.

Here is where error exists.. Christ was conceived of God.. We are already born of flesh to which Mary is.. Now we need to be born of the Spirit which only comes from the Father. We are not born of Mary to be Christian but one must be born of the Father if one is Christian. This is why we are to cry out Abba Father. We are members of Christ through the Holy Spirit and not through Mary..She is our sister in the Lord for she too was born again of the Father.


As St. Cyprian said, "No one has God for a Father who has not the Church for his Mother." So likewise, it is true that "No one has God for a Father who has not Mary for his Mother." If Mary was not necessary for salvation, Christ would not have given her to us as our mother.

Where did Jesus give Mary to us as our mother? Jesus gave John the care for Mary. I am not John. This bit about the church being a mother confuses me. So now I understand that we have two mothers?


Does it matter who St. Louis Marie de Montfort is? It is the same as if I gave the same exposition on the Scriptures as he does, except that you can be assured that de Montfort's words are representative of orthodox Catholic Mariology, with mine you must be more skeptical. Since you clearly reject de Montfort's exposition on the Scriptures and say that the Scriptures refute him, would you please give evidence of that rather than vague accusations? Chapter and verse, please.

Expound please.

 

[MamaZ]

This kind from 2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This is the basis of the doctrine of theosis.

peace,

Anglian

So someone one is using this scripture to preach that we will become gods?

 

[MamaZ]

Indeed. You seem to wish to confine the interpretation of the whole book by these two verses. There is a rich history of exegesis, I quoted part of it, you disagree because it does not fit what you think it ought to mean. This isn't much of a basis for discussion really. I quote from the fathers and tradition, you say you don't agree. I think by this stage we know you agree with your interpretation of Scriptures; I think everyone can do that

peace,

Anglian

Well ususally you start a book from the very first two Sentences so you can understand the full book.. This is why context to scripture is important.. This is why scripture speaks for itself.. These events you read in the book of Revelations are things to come..

 

[Anglian]

So someone one us using this scripture to preach that we will become gods?

No. That is what the Mormons do.

What Orthodox Christians do is what St. Athanasius and the Greek fathers have always done, which is to explain how St. Peter is describing our destiny in God - which is to realise in us that image of God in whom we are made.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Anglian says that we do not see Mary as a goddess, I said that Mary is only a goddess in so much as Christ said "you are gods":



Christ is quoting Psalm 81:



Yet the Psalmist continues:



We are created like gods, we have the powers of creation (as the priest yesterday noted, that is why women should wear veils) and authority. We have the will of a god in the body of a beast and sentenced to die. In the words of the esteemed poet Bruce Dickinson:



That is why we create stories of gods as "men writ large" (in the words of Feuerbach). Yet there is a God, a true myth, who writes in strokes even more dramatic than the great playwrights, whose teachings are more brilliant than the Platonists. Odin gave up his eye and was pierced on the World Tree, our God gave up His life, pierced on the Tree. Odin did it for his own wisdom and edification, our God did it for us. No pagan myth is as dramatic as the Christian, no pagan feast as joyous as a Christian one, no pagan sacrifice as glorious as the Christian one.











I also said that some have misunderstood Christ's words (LDS comes to mind...) and so that it is best to say simply that Mary is the most exalted creature in all of Creation. Mary, by her nature, is infinitely lower than God, of course.



Mary, by grace, however, is completely subsumed in Christ such that she can apply to herself fully the words of St. Paul, And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. (Gal 2:20a).

It is the heresy of the serpent to say:



And what happened? Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to her husband. The second part of the serpent's assertion was true, their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil (in particular, evil, as they were already acquainted with good).



But what else? The serpent lied in the first part, Eve knew quite well what God had said, yet she chose to listen to the serpent who denied the words of God and thus is the result (as we were recently reminded at Ash Wednesday):



Yet, in a sense, the serpent did not tell a lie since God redeemed His people from eternal death, sin and the devil through the Cross, as was prophesied in the Protoevangelium:



We even go so far as to call the sin of Adam and Eve, "felix culpa" ("happy fault"):



So, in the end, the serpent was right? Wrong. It is true that man is no longer subject to eternal death and that our eyes are opened to the distinction between good and evil and that we shall be as gods. All those things are true in and of themselves, yet the lie -- the heresy -- is more subtle. It is a question of obedience and order. In order to be be as gods, we must conform our will to the Will of the One God and crucify our own desires. We are not to become gods independent of God, we are to be come gods in God.

Only the One God is God by nature, we become gods by Grace. Thus our status is dependent on God, even our mere existence is dependent not only on a single act of Creation but the continual, active, sustaining act of God. That is why only God can be accorded divine worship and sacrifice. We venerate the saints, especially Our Lady, because we venerate God in them and them in God. By being close to God, the saints take on the communicable attributes of God but not the incommunicable attributes or, in the terms of St. Gregory Palamas, the energies but not the essence of God. Through reception of the Sacraments and conforming our life to that of Christ, we advance along this Ladder of Divine Ascent, until we too reach Heaven and the divine state.

This is the Mystery of Salvation. This is why Christ came to Earth. This is why Man was created.

Sounds like a good sci-fi movie to me.. So Christ came to earth so we could become gods?

 

[MamaZ]

No. That is what the Mormons do.

What Orthodox Christians do is what St. Athanasius and the Greek fathers have always done, which is to explain how St. Peter is describing our destiny in God - which is to realise in us that image of God in whom we are made.

peace,

Anglian

Okay so then do you believe that Adam and Eve were divine?

 

[Anglian]

Okay so then do you believe that Adam and Eve were divine?

They were made in God's image, they were not divine any more than we are; we, too, are made in God's image, and our life here as Christians will aid the realisation of that image.

This is what St. Peter refers to. The slipshod use of the word 'divine' by unorthodox Christians creates confusion; but we should not respond to it by dropping language Christians have used since St. Peter.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

They were made in God's image, they were not divine any more than we are; we, too, are made in God's image, and our life here as Christians will aid the realisation of that image.

This is what St. Peter refers to. The slipshod use of the word 'divine' by unorthodox Christians creates confusion; but we should not respond to it by dropping language Christians have used since St. Peter.

peace,

Anglian

So explain then this slipshod use of the word divine by protestants to me. So either Adam and Eve were divine or they were not. Either Mary is divine or she isn't.. We are partakers of Gods divine nature not His stature or position..

 

[Anglian]

Well ususally you start a book from the very first two Sentences so you can understand the full book.. This is why context to scripture is important.. This is why scripture speaks for itself.. These events you read in the book of Revelations are things to come..

It is in the nature of any apocalypse to survey past, present and future - eschatology does that.

Of course, since we only have the warrant of the Church that the Apocalypse is Scripture (it was unknown in most Churches until the fourth century), it is particularly important we do not lend ourselves to self-inspired readings of it; indeed, it was this last fear that made so many of the Fathers doubt whether the book was genuinely Apostolic.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

So explain then this slipshod use of the word divine by protestants to me. So either Adam and Eve were divine or they were not. Either Mary is divine or she isn't.. We are partakers of Gods divine nature not His stature or position..

I think you just illustrated what you ask.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

So explain then this slipshod use of the word divine by protestants to me. So either Adam and Eve were divine or they were not. Either Mary is divine or she isn't.. We are partakers of Gods divine nature not His stature or position..

Adam and Eve, like St. Mary, and like us, are made in the image of God. That is the only sense in which the word 'divine' applies to us.

peace,

Anglian