There was no "before" before the Big Bang

[Steve Petersen]

As scientists like Hawking have explained, our usual everyday understanding of cause and effect doesn't apply to the beginning of the universe.

Is that what you call an 'appeal to authority' argument?

 

[lesliedellow]

As scientists like Hawking have explained, our usual everyday understanding of cause and effect doesn't apply to the beginning of the universe.

The scientists who are the most sniffy about philosophy are the ones least likely to recognise a philosophical statement when it comes tripping off of their own lips.

 

[davedajobauk]

With an endless cosmos, it must be happening constantly somewhere.

Constantly ? ..... /, infers TIME & SPACE
In such an infinity as there must be.... we would have no measure (of time and space)

 

[Yoder777]

Is that what you call an 'appeal to authority' argument?

No, please read what they've actually written and the scientific arguments involved.

 

[Strathos]

Seeing as God is not bound by the laws of causality, I don't see how this is a problem for a theistic interpretation.

 

[SkyWriting]

No, please read what they've actually written and the scientific arguments involved.

I prefer to discuss what you actually write and support with citations.

 

[Yoder777]

Seeing as God is not bound by the laws of causality, I don't see how this is a problem for a theistic interpretation.

If God didn't need a cause, why did the universe?

 

[davedajobauk]

Surely God's will had His Purpose

 

[DogmaHunter]

It's actually really simple guys....

This "cosmological argument" of the "first cause" is fallacious nonsense. Why? Because it takes natural laws that apply IN THE UNIVERSE and tries to apply it to a state where NO SUCH UNIVERSE exists.

The phenomena of causality is such a thing. Causality is a phenomena that is part of physics "as we know it".
These physics are descriptive of how the universe works.

You remove the universe and then pretend that these laws (=physics) still apply.
It could be, but it is very unlikely.

Causality is necessarily dependend on the existance of a time dimension - perhaps even a space dimension, but I'll let that slide for now.

Time is a integral part OF the universe itself.
The universe is also called "the space-time continuum".

In other words, for causality/physics as we know it to apply, the universe MUST exist.

You can't explain the origins of the universe by apply rules and laws of the universe to a state where no such universe exists.

You got a chicken and egg problem if you try to do so.

Causality requires time.
Time is an integral part of the universe, the space-time continuum.
No universe = no space-time = no space and no time.
No universe = no physics of the universe

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You can't explain the origins of the universe by apply rules and laws of the universe to a state where no such universe exists.

Not to mention that they don't apply the rules consistently anyway.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This article by Boxing Pythagoras is relevant:

Asking “What happened before the first moment of Time?” is precisely akin to “What place lies north of the North Pole?” There are no places to the north of the North Pole. The North Pole is the northernmost point on the globe. If you were to be standing on the North Pole, and you took one big step in any direction, that step would take you directly south. In exactly the same way, it does not make sense to ask, “What happened before the first moment of Time?” There is no way for a thing to happen before the first moment of Time, because things only happen within Time, and there is no Time which exists before the first moment.

The universe has always existed. Now, the question of whether its history is past-infinite or past-finite is certainly intriguing, and well worth study, but it is ultimately irrelevant to the question, “What happened before the universe?” There very simply is no such thing as “before the universe.”

 

[lesliedellow]

This "cosmological argument" of the "first cause" is fallacious nonsense. Why? Because it takes natural laws that apply IN THE UNIVERSE and tries to apply it to a state where NO SUCH UNIVERSE exists.

Does that apply to atheists who try to explain the origin of the universe in terms of a vacuum fluctuation? Because the laws of quantum mechanics more surely belong to a universe which already exists than the notion of causality does.

 

[Aman777]

It's like you guys didn't even read the original post. Here is more:

The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time.[31] Then, the question "What was there before the Universe?" makes no sense; the concept of "before" becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time.

False, since there were two of God's Days/Ages, or some 10 Billion years in man's time BEFORE the Big Bang of our cosmos. God made other "heavens" on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 to add to the first firmament, which He called "heaven", on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 That makes THREE heavens or universes within the Multiverse, which is beginning to be physically confirmed by the Europeans. https://www.newscientist.com/articl...s-could-be-first-glimpse-of-another-universe/ Amen?

 

[Yoder777]

It's actually really simple guys....

This "cosmological argument" of the "first cause" is fallacious nonsense. Why? Because it takes natural laws that apply IN THE UNIVERSE and tries to apply it to a state where NO SUCH UNIVERSE exists.

The phenomena of causality is such a thing. Causality is a phenomena that is part of physics "as we know it".
These physics are descriptive of how the universe works.

You remove the universe and then pretend that these laws (=physics) still apply.
It could be, but it is very unlikely.

Causality is necessarily dependend on the existance of a time dimension - perhaps even a space dimension, but I'll let that slide for now.

Time is a integral part OF the universe itself.
The universe is also called "the space-time continuum".

In other words, for causality/physics as we know it to apply, the universe MUST exist.

You can't explain the origins of the universe by apply rules and laws of the universe to a state where no such universe exists.

You got a chicken and egg problem if you try to do so.

Causality requires time.
Time is an integral part of the universe, the space-time continuum.
No universe = no space-time = no space and no time.
No universe = no physics of the universe

Thank you for clearing things up.

 

[Yoder777]

The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time.[31] Then, the question "What was there before the Universe?" makes no sense; the concept of "before" becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time.

False, since there were two of God's Days/Ages, or some 10 Billion years in man's time BEFORE the Big Bang of our cosmos. God made other "heavens" on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 to add to the first firmament, which He called "heaven", on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8 That makes THREE heavens or universes within the Multiverse, which is beginning to be physically confirmed by the Europeans. https://www.newscientist.com/articl...s-could-be-first-glimpse-of-another-universe/ Amen?

Quoting the Bible, written by people who thought the sun revolves around the earth, is irrelevant to science.

 

[Strathos]

If God didn't need a cause, why did the universe?

Because God made it that way.

According to my faith/belief.

Feel free to disagree if you wish.

 

[Yoder777]

Because God made it that way.

According to my faith/belief.

Feel free to disagree if you wish.

That's not science.

 

[lesliedellow]

That's not science.

So what?

 

[Aman777]

Quoting the Bible, written by people who thought the sun revolves around the earth, is irrelevant to science.

God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture. He is also the Spirit of Truth. NO man, who lived more than 3k years ago could have possibly known what is written in Genesis. In example:

We live in a Multiverse composed of at least 3 Universes. Gen 1:8 and Gen 2:4
The Big Bang was on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4
The first Stars (confirmed in 2015 by scientists) lit up on the 4th Day (Gen 1:16) some 550 Million years AFTER the Big Bang of the 3rd Day.

Can you explain HOW ancient men knew these things? Of course Not since it's empirical evidence of the Literal God. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

Because God made it that way.

According to my faith/belief.

Feel free to disagree if you wish.

God is currently completing His perfect Third Heaven and filling it with perfect people who will live forever with Him, thanks to Jesus. That's because Today remains the 6th Creative Day and God is Still creating Adam (mankind) in God's Image which is in Christ Spiritually, at Gen 1:27. We will NOT advance to the Prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 until AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon.

When God's work is finished (brought to perfection) He will rest from ALL of His work on the 7th Day which is future to our time. Gen 2:1-3 God Bless you