There must have been death in Paradise even before mans fall...

ArmyMatt said:

See, but the laws of physics state that there is decay in the modern world, yet in Paradise there was no decay. Nothing died, rotted, grew sick, etc. This would enclude the decay that occurs anywhere in the universe. This is not speculation, this is the teaching of the church.

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It is speculation unless you can come up with some scriptural support for the claim

ArmyMatt said:

See, but the laws of physics state that there is decay in the modern world, yet in Paradise there was no decay. Nothing died, rotted, grew sick, etc. This would enclude the decay that occurs anywhere in the universe. This is not speculation, this is the teaching of the church.

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That may be the teaching of your denomination, but it is not a teaching universally accepted in the Church.

Many Christians hold that the passage in Romans which speaks of Adam bringing sin and death into the world applies only to human death, and possibly specifically to spiritual death.

How could other life forms in Eden not die? As long as any organism, including humans, ate food, the organism which supplied the food would have to die. How could there not be decay? Eden would have been knee-deep in excrement without decay organisms clearing it away.

For that matter, without decay what would those organisms use for food? Without decay they would starve to death.

So one way or another, some level of death had to exist prior to the fall.

It doesn't make sense for God to have created death in Paradise. If God created death, then that means that death is good. If death is good, then why does Christ come to destroy death? Why is death called the last ememy that Christ will subdue? Why are both death and Hades cast into the Lake of Fire?

Also, to answer your question of food, the Bible says that in Eden we ate the fruits and nuts, so no meat was eaten and plants did not die.

The Fathers of the Church, I believe, also say that when God clothed Adam and Eve with skins, he did not slaughter an animal and cover them with the hide. He gave them more material flesh and bone bone bodies we have today.

Their bodies pre-Fall were probably like Christ's after the Ressurection (though not entirely since He is God) and still having flesh and bone (like Even being fashioned from Adam's rib) and they were more spiritual and angelic-like then ours are today. How theirs were more agelic or what that means exactly is anybody's guess (here's where I'd be speculating). I hope this clarifies some things.

ArmyMatt said:

Also, to answer your question of food, the Bible says that in Eden we ate the fruits and nuts, so no meat was eaten and plants did not die.

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You are missing the point:

Why did we (and other animals) eat at all? What was the purpose of eating if not to stay alive? Why did we eat to stay alive if we were not susceptible to death?

Why was there a Tree of Life in the garden?

How can plants survive being eaten? Plants have to die when they get eaten. They are not still alive at the nether end of the digestive tract.

The Fathers of the Church, I believe, also say that when God clothed Adam and Eve with skins, he did not slaughter an animal and cover them with the hide. He gave them more material flesh and bone bone bodies we have today.

Their bodies pre-Fall were probably like Christ's after the Ressurection (though not entirely since He is God) and still having flesh and bone (like Even being fashioned from Adam's rib) and they were more spiritual and angelic-like then ours are today. How theirs were more agelic or what that means exactly is anybody's guess (here's where I'd be speculating). I hope this clarifies some things.

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There is not a word in the bible to support any of these ideas. That is just making stuff up.

ArmyMatt said:

It doesn't make sense for God to have created death in Paradise. If God created death, then that means that death is good. If death is good, then why does Christ come to destroy death? Why is death called the last ememy that Christ will subdue? Why are both death and Hades cast into the Lake of Fire?

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Now try writing that paragraph using 'the Devil' instead of 'death'. If God did not create death where did it come from?

Whether it was there in the garden or only after the fall, death was something God came up with. The question you have to ask is how something God made became an enemy he has to destroy?

Assyrian said:

Now try writing that paragraph using 'the Devil' instead of 'death'. If God did not create death where did it come from?

Whether it was there in the garden or only after the fall, death was something God came up with. The question you have to ask is how something God made became an enemy he has to destroy?

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God maybe created the death but Adam and Eve choiced to die.God warned them that if they make a act the should die Genesis 2:17.
That was two human beings that make us to dieRomans 5:12 but God wanted give us other a chance to live eternal.That chance we get when Jesus was willing to die for us Matthew 20:28

In regard to the devil. God did not make the devil evil. He made a high angel in His image (not image and likeness because that is for humans alone). Being made in God's image the Devil was made free like every other angel, and he chose to rebel.

In regard to plants, I said we ate fruit and nuts from the plants, we did not kill the plants so the plants did not die.

In regard to death. Death is separation. God did not intend Adam to die. God did not tell Adam eat of the tree and I'll kill you, He said eat and you shall die.

In regard to the Tree of Life, I'm kinda cloudy on that so I'll get back to you later.

In regard to "making stuff up," seeing has how the Bible New Testament was not canonical until the end of the fourth century (I know all books were written in the first, but they were not compiled together or used as Scripture until the year 396), then what kept the faith together when a heretic would spring up would be the writings of the Church Fathers and the Councils. This is just general Christian history that I am using.

If you were to read the council that decided upon the New Testament, what they used to decide what would go in was two criteria:

1) Is the author an apostle or close associate of an apostle?
2) Is this what the Church always believed?

The way that those early Christians decided on what to use was to look at the teaching of the lines of bishops back to the teaching of the Apostles. Those authors that kept the faith pure before the New Testament was used are the Church Fathers (they extend past that to the ninth century). Again, this is just general history that you can find in a textbook. So you are right in saying this is not in the Bible, you are wrong in saying that I made it up.

You still need to answer my question about death being good. Satan only proves my point that God only makes good things. God made an angel (which is good), with freedom (which is good). That angel used his freedom to rebel. This brings me back to my original question: if God made death, and everything God makes is good, then death is good. If death is good why does Christ come to destroy death?

ArmyMatt said:

In regard to the Tree of Life, I'm kinda cloudy on that so I'll get back to you later.

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The devil's in the details.

If death is good why does Christ come to destroy death?

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Christ came to destroy a spiritual death that separated us from God. There are many reasons for supposing the death that came to the fallen Adam and Eve was spiritual, including the existence of the Tree of Life, the fact that Adam and Eve had to eat, the killing of plants for such, the fact that Adam did not physically die "on the day" that he ate the forbidden fruit, and numerous other Bible verses attest to this. More here: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritualdeath.php

ArmyMatt said:

In regard to plants, I said we ate fruit and nuts from the plants, we did not kill the plants so the plants did not die.

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No, the trees did not die. But the fruit and the nuts did. Also the grains and the vegetables.

But you are still avoiding the first question: why did the inhabitants of Eden (both human and animal) eat anything at all if there was no death? Why did they need to eat? Why did God provide them with food to eat?

So you are right in saying this is not in the Bible, you are wrong in saying that I made it up.

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It doesn't matter if you made it up yourself, or if you are quoting someone else who made it up. Even a Church Father. It is still made up stuff not supported by scripture.

This brings me back to my original question: if God made death, and everything God makes is good, then death is good. If death is good why does Christ come to destroy death?

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What turned Satan bad is also what turned death bad. Think on what Paul says in Romans 7:9-10. Note that he says "...and I died." Yet he was writing the letter when he said that. So how was it that he could say "..and I died."?

gluadys said:

No, the trees did not die. But the fruit and the nuts did. Also the grains and the vegetables.

But you are still avoiding the first question: why did the inhabitants of Eden (both human and animal) eat anything at all if there was no death? Why did they need to eat? Why did God provide them with food to eat?

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My thoughts about this is:God wanted us to enjoy life.He didn`t need to create us with taste, that we could see colours (with all our senses) They are there for we shall enjou the life

I have always wonder if we should die wh God say that we should die if we ate Genesis 2:17 and another scriptures that make me to think too is
Ecclesiastes 3:
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men;......

If we was meant to die in the Garden of Eden this should be fair and I know God is fair

Having to eat and enjoying the blessing of taste are two different things. If God didn't design us to eat from the beginning, He wouldn't have given us stomachs. Unless, of course, stomachs are one of those things YECs claim came into existence after the Fall.
There is nothing in Genesis to suggest that God did not create our stomachs in the beginning to metabolize food so that we would not die.

Mallon said:

Having to eat and enjoying the blessing of taste are two different things. If God didn't design us to eat from the beginning, He wouldn't have given us stomachs. Unless, of course, stomachs are one of those things YECs claim came into existence after the Fall.
There is nothing in Genesis to suggest that God did not create our stomachs in the beginning to metabolize food so that we would not die.

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I think we should eat from the beginning
Genesis 1:
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food

but he even said

Genesis 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I think God said this before the Fall because God said after the Fall
Genesis 3:
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

All of Creation pre-Fall was designed to help man draw closer to God. Remember what I said before how stuff did not decay because the teaching of the Church says that the laws of nature were different.

Eating of the trees and nuts of the earth was not the same as it is today, because all of nature fell during the Fall all of our natural processes are different today because of Man's disobedience. However, the only thing I have to back up my claim is the teaching of the Church, which you reject.

What specific Fathers, if I may ask? Specific quotes? Is there a broad consensus, or just a few isolated opinions?

ArmyMatt said:

In regard to the devil. God did not make the devil evil. He made a high angel in His image (not image and likeness because that is for humans alone). Being made in God's image the Devil was made free like every other angel, and he chose to rebel.

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You still need to answer my question about death being good. Satan only proves my point that God only makes good things. God made an angel (which is good), with freedom (which is good). That angel used his freedom to rebel. This brings me back to my original question: if God made death, and everything God makes is good, then death is good. If death is good why does Christ come to destroy death?

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What you said about Satan actually shows the flaw in you original argument. Just because death is now the enemy does not mean it always was. Just as Satan was created good, but became evil when he rebelled, death could also have been part of the natural world God created, and only became the enemy when man sinned and death consigned lost man to an eternity without God.

In regard to death. Death is separation. God did not intend Adam to die. God did not tell Adam eat of the tree and I'll kill you, He said eat and you shall die.

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I understand the desire to 'clear God' of creating death, but it takes from his sovereignty. This was part of his plan from before the foundation of the world. Christ's death was written into the fabric of creation, he would not have been able to lay down his life if God had not created a world where that was possible. Even you believe God changed the nature of our bodies at the fall and gave us flesh and blood bodies capable of decay and death. Death was something God created.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. All of creation was subjected to decay and death by the will of God. Now I believe this refers to the original creation, decay and death are part of the good world God created, in the hope of bringing creation into something even better in the fullness of time.

The question you have to ask is, if death was created at the fall, if it was always ugly horror it is now, did God create his own enemy?

To answer the first question, the Church Fathers are saints that have written down many documents from the first century til about the ninth (I think). They are the holy men who kept the faith pure.

In regard to death. God did not create death, death was introduced because of Man's rebellion. You still have to show that death is good if created by God.

I also hope that I am not coming off in the wrong way in this debate. This is a sweet topic and worthy of discussion. Booyah

You didn't answer my question, although I suppose it was somewhat vague. I know who the Fathers are, and I know that Tradition also operates by consensus. In other words, the Fathers are not infallible, and not everything they wrote was correct. Orthodox teaching is therefore not based on every word the Fathers wrote, but on the consensus through the centuries of the Fathers.

So I ask again...What specific Fathers, specific quotes, and is there a broad consensus? Particularly, I'm interested in the statements regarding the physical laws and bodies of Adam and Eve being different before the Fall, as well as the statement about them being clothed in skins.

Something else too. Satan was once good and became bad. Death was never good. Satan in no way disproved anything I said, only that good can become bad. Show me that death went from good to bad.

ArmyMatt said:

To answer the first question, the Church Fathers are saints that have written down many documents from the first century til about the ninth (I think). They are the holy men who kept the faith pure.

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Yes, we all know who the church fathers were. When you claim that they agree with you, you have to show which fathers and in which of their many works they agree otherwise it's just an empty claim. I'm not going to read through all of Aquinus and Augustine in the next few days just to check to see if your claims are legit!

In regard to death. God did not create death, death was introduced because of Man's rebellion. You still have to show that death is good if created by God.

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You still haven't shown this to be biblical or supported by church fathers. Further, death is seen as glorifying to God in a number of passages -- my favorite is in Job:

Job 39: 27-30 said:

Does the eagle soar at your command and build his nest on high?
He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night; a rocky crag is his stronghold.
From there he seeks out his food; his eyes detect it from afar.
His young ones feast on blood, and where the slain are, there is he.

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Notice that in context, this is God directly showing Job all the things that he created that make him a God worth worshipping. It is to God's glory that the Eagle's young feasts on blood!