There must have been death in Paradise even before mans fall...

[White St*r]

Only for the last few days have I been toiling with this idea, that physical death did not come into the world through our sins, but mostly Spiritual death. Now it is not difficult for is to find out with a certain amount of truth that Adam lived about 6000 years ago (Created).

Now if we say that death (physical death like the animals dying and the lion eating a gaselle) came into the world through sin, then I have heard (and have believed, and still maybe do - I am just an honest thinker who believes that the truth will set us free) that some say that this means that the lions and eagles and everything ate there veggies and stuff until that moment...

But I am starting to believe that either they did not eat veggies (I do not think that the lion suddenly woke up the morning after the fall and felt them sharp teeth in his mount that he didn't have the night before) or that it was God's plan that we should eat the forbidden fruit for some higher purpose .... (HERETIC!!! GET HIS I.P. ADRESS SO THAT WE CAN STONE HIM!!!)

Anyway, so in my quest to get the truth that the Lord allows me to obtain, something came into my head that made me curios ...

If we say that there was no death, then everything had to survive right? But then I thought that after a while things would get quite crowded... but just hom crowded....?

So I picked the common house fly aas an experiment and did the following maths...
The house fly wife lies about 8000 eggs in her life of about a month... (or maybe it is 8000 eggs at a time, I could not tell) forgive me but I had to get the info from Wikipedia, since it did not stand in the bible ...

So that means Eve fly laid 8000 eggs, and in a month 4000 of the lady flies will lay another 8000 eggs etc ....

Now lets look at the maths here ...
In six months there will be about 4096000000000000000000 FEMALE FLIES ALONE ....
Now lets say every fly weighs only 0.1g then there total weight of the females will be 409600000000000 TONS!!!
Now the weight of the whole earth is 4738381338321616 Tons
SO only the females will weigh about 8% the weight of the whole earth!! But lets go just one month more and see what happens ...

After just seven months the total weight of all the female flies will be
345 times the weight of the whole earth !!!!

So I am very honestly asking the question, do you not think there is room for us to believe that even while Adam was naming the animals, he was busy looking at the lion eating a sheep and said that "that animal eating the other one I am going to call a lion, and the one being eaten I am going to call a sheep..." ?

Either there must have been physical death in paradise, or God wanted us to eat the fruit just so that within 7 month His whole creation will not be squished by those overweight female flies!!!

I am putting a humoristic view on this, but I am actually asking very earnestly what your opinion is...

(Sorry, the title had to be "Paradise" and not Paradys as in my native tongue ... )

 

[artjack]

well what about the bible saying about the serpant who lost its legs!

when did flies start to be? there had to death to supply the fly with food so perhalps they came after sin.whats rong with the idea they did not exist in or before paradice because they had no food supply,

who knows how fertile flies were back at the begining of their existance! they may not compare with today, we have proof humans had some different features today than they were at first, but the important thing is they were still human.

 

[Robert_Barnes]

Although ArtJack is quite possibly correct that flies did not appear until after the Fall (although this creates its own hermeneutical problems), it is undeniable that entropy - in general - existed before the fall.

 

[homewardbound]

Depending on which bible translation you use, Genesis 3:16 says "I will multiply your pain and your conception". Some translations say "pain in conception", implying that prior to the fall, childbirth was painless. Then again, Adam and Eve hadn't had any children prior to the fall.

Anyway, a possible explanation is that God's original plan was for all species to reproduce at a much slower rate so the earth wouldn't be overrun.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

All things possible with God. Some stories repeat as tradition that everything was vegetarian.
It is harder to think of a True Paradise with death and of Adam and Eve having to concern themselves with being eaten.

 

[Uphill Battle]

There is some speculation that vermin were not created until the plagues of Egypt, and for that specific reason. (no intellecual assent, just speculation.)

 

[Theophorus]

... it is undeniable that entropy - in general - existed before the fall.

And why is that undeniable? The thing to keep in mind here is that all of creation is in a sense, abnormal or sick. To take the laws of fallen creation and project them back to the garden of eden does not make sense.

 

[jckstraw72]

And why is that undeniable? The thing to keep in mind here is that all of creation is in a sense, abnormal or sick. To take the laws of fallen creation and project them back to the garden of eden does not make sense.

exactly.

nothing died until man sinned.

 

[lamblion]

Only for the last few days have I been toiling with this idea, that physical death did not come into the world through our sins, but mostly Spiritual death. Now it is not difficult for is to find out with a certain amount of truth that Adam lived about 6000 years ago (Created).

Now if we say that death (physical death like the animals dying and the lion eating a gaselle) came into the world through sin, then I have heard (and have believed, and still maybe do - I am just an honest thinker who believes that the truth will set us free) that some say that this means that the lions and eagles and everything ate there veggies and stuff until that moment...

But I am starting to believe that either they did not eat veggies (I do not think that the lion suddenly woke up the morning after the fall and felt them sharp teeth in his mount that he didn't have the night before) or that it was God's plan that we should eat the forbidden fruit for some higher purpose .... (HERETIC!!! GET HIS I.P. ADRESS SO THAT WE CAN STONE HIM!!!)

Anyway, so in my quest to get the truth that the Lord allows me to obtain, something came into my head that made me curios ...

If we say that there was no death, then everything had to survive right? But then I thought that after a while things would get quite crowded... but just hom crowded....?

So I picked the common house fly aas an experiment and did the following maths...
The house fly wife lies about 8000 eggs in her life of about a month... (or maybe it is 8000 eggs at a time, I could not tell) forgive me but I had to get the info from Wikipedia, since it did not stand in the bible ...

So that means Eve fly laid 8000 eggs, and in a month 4000 of the lady flies will lay another 8000 eggs etc ....

Now lets look at the maths here ...
In six months there will be about 4096000000000000000000 FEMALE FLIES ALONE ....
Now lets say every fly weighs only 0.1g then there total weight of the females will be 409600000000000 TONS!!!
Now the weight of the whole earth is 4738381338321616 Tons
SO only the females will weigh about 8% the weight of the whole earth!! But lets go just one month more and see what happens ...

After just seven months the total weight of all the female flies will be
345 times the weight of the whole earth !!!!

So I am very honestly asking the question, do you not think there is room for us to believe that even while Adam was naming the animals, he was busy looking at the lion eating a sheep and said that "that animal eating the other one I am going to call a lion, and the one being eaten I am going to call a sheep..." ?

Either there must have been physical death in paradise, or God wanted us to eat the fruit just so that within 7 month His whole creation will not be squished by those overweight female flies!!!

I am putting a humoristic view on this, but I am actually asking very earnestly what your opinion is...

(Sorry, the title had to be "Paradise" and not Paradys as in my native tongue ... )

I do believe that death had already entered creation through the fall of satan and his angels, but it had yet to infiltrate planet earth. God restored the planet earth into a perfect environment, placing His new creation of humanity on it also in an perfect esate. Although death reigned throughout the universe because of the universal fall of the angelic rulers, earth was given a speacial restoration for a speacial creation.

With this we know that Adam was perfect, thus making his environment perfect, and all that God had created around him God Himslef said " It is good". Nevertheless, when Adam fell the entire planet fell along with him, because God had placed Adam as ruler of the earth. It is when he sinned that satan had taken dominion over the earth and death entered this planet, thus effecting all things that inhabite it; including the animal kingdom.

 

[White St*r]

Ok, I think people are kind of missing the point with the flies...

It was just an example using one of the smallest creatures on the planet...

Lets bring it right home and look at humans ....
Allowing that the human race multiplied on the earth after the flood in the ratio that the Israelites did in Egypt, their numbers would double once in fourteen years, or seventeen times in two hundred and forty years. Now this would mean, if there was no death on earth, that in just 750 years the total weight of humans would have been one third that of the earth, assuming every human weighed only 50kg!!! Not to mention that we are only living on the outside of this sphere!! Even before Noah would have died (or Adam for that matter), assuming that we all had only one sqr meter to stand in, we would still have to be stacked up 3 in top of each other!!! (That is if we used the whole surface of the earth and there was no water!!!)

And again that is not even counting the flies - AND EVERY OTHER CREATURE ON EARTH!!!

I am just honestly making a point here …

The main point is if I had to make a guess about the following, for I do not really know how to work this out, but if nothing died on earth, the whole surface of the earth would have been totally full of living creatures within a 100 years ... !!! (That is counting all the rhinos and lions and chickens etc.) Not to mention the perfect conditions that existed in paradise

What keeps us from saying that only spiritual death entered into the world by mans fall, seeing that the earth would have been totally exhausted if nothing died within a century ...?

 

[Firefall]

Perhaps, as has been suggested, reproduction rates were much, much slower than they are now and were in Egypt. Take the early lineage of Adam for example; many of the forefathers had hundred year gaps between each child they had. Societies throughout history often have larger families because the children were invaluable to the family's own survival. Since Adam and Eve were completely cared for and secure, they might not have a child for hundreds and hundreds of years. As it was, Adam was 130 years old before he had Cain!

So I guess that is one way of explaining it, but this is all speculation.

NB: And if the Garden of Eden continued on its glorious state, surely the human race would soon have the technology to colonise other planets.

 

[White St*r]

Perhaps, as has been suggested, reproduction rates were much, much slower than they are now and were in Egypt. Take the early lineage of Adam for example; many of the forefathers had hundred year gaps between each child they had. Societies throughout history often have larger families because the children were invaluable to the family's own survival. Since Adam and Eve were completely cared for and secure, they might not have a child for hundreds and hundreds of years. As it was, Adam was 130 years old before he had Cain!

So I guess that is one way of explaining it, but this is all speculation.

NB: And if the Garden of Eden continued on its glorious state, surely the human race would soon have the technology to colonise other planets.

Ok, that was the first answer that had some thought behind it - granted.

But it still only address the human factor, and even then it just moves the "earth is exhausted" date from about 100 years to about 300 - 400 years. Now I did not even put into the equation the fact that there had to be trees on earth as well. So they must also have there spot, and not the mention ALL the fruit trees, since every animal ate herbs ... come to think of it - a tree being eaten, does that not count as death? Is the tree not a living thing?

But lets go on, I think it is hard to get past the fact that if nothing died the earth would not have been able to sustain life for more than about 400 years. I do not think God held his breath for us to go from discovering fire to colonising mars in about 400 years ...

Then also another thing I thought about, do you think God really planned that no human or lion or rhino would ever accidentally step on an ant or some bug taking a nap underneath a leaf on the ground ... ?

The more I think about it the more I am wondering why we actually believe, or need to believe that no animals died before the fall of man... Can someone give some scriptures for why we believe this so that we can study it together.

 

[LightDancer]

Ok, I think people are kind of missing the point with the flies...

It was just an example using one of the smallest creatures on the planet...

Lets bring it right home and look at humans ....
Allowing that the human race multiplied on the earth after the flood in the ratio that the Israelites did in Egypt, their numbers would double once in fourteen years, or seventeen times in two hundred and forty years. Now this would mean, if there was no death on earth, that in just 750 years the total weight of humans would have been one third that of the earth, assuming every human weighed only 50kg!!! Not to mention that we are only living on the outside of this sphere!! Even before Noah would have died (or Adam for that matter), assuming that we all had only one sqr meter to stand in, we would still have to be stacked up 3 in top of each other!!! (That is if we used the whole surface of the earth and there was no water!!!)

And again that is not even counting the flies - AND EVERY OTHER CREATURE ON EARTH!!!

I am just honestly making a point here …

The main point is if I had to make a guess about the following, for I do not really know how to work this out, but if nothing died on earth, the whole surface of the earth would have been totally full of living creatures within a 100 years ... !!! (That is counting all the rhinos and lions and chickens etc.) Not to mention the perfect conditions that existed in paradise

What keeps us from saying that only spiritual death entered into the world by mans fall, seeing that the earth would have been totally exhausted if nothing died within a century ...?

Actually where I currently live there are almost no flies whatsoever. There are in fact very few bugs where I live. However, we just got a new type of moth that is about as big as bat? Since the changes in the climate because of global warming, in my little neck of the earth we have had a few new moths appear, seemingly out of no where?

Anyhow, you'd have to know the atmosphere of the Garden of Eden to really know the answer to your question, and scientifically, I think that is impossible.

 

[Rut]

My feeling here is that we forget what God said in Genesis 1:28

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

They should only fill the earth and then could God stop that we could do that.

I have a book that can explain this because we haven`t fill up the earth yet.I shall see if I can find it

 

[Robert_Barnes]

And why is that undeniable? The thing to keep in mind here is that all of creation is in a sense, abnormal or sick. To take the laws of fallen creation and project them back to the garden of eden does not make sense.

exactly.

nothing died until man sinned.

Entropy existed before the fall. We know this because Scripture states it quite plainly. According to Genesis 2, plants had not yet appeared because (an immediate causal relationship) it had not rained.

IOW, even BEFORE the days of creation were over, natural processes had already been set in motion:

Plants don't grow without water to feed them.

That requires entropy.

 

[homewardbound]

Lets bring it right home and look at humans ....
Allowing that the human race multiplied on the earth after the flood in the ratio that the Israelites did in Egypt, their numbers would double once in fourteen years, or seventeen times in two hundred and forty years. Now this would mean, if there was no death on earth, that in just 750 years the total weight of humans would have been one third that of the earth, assuming every human weighed only 50kg!!! Not to mention that we are only living on the outside of this sphere!! Even before Noah would have died (or Adam for that matter), assuming that we all had only one sqr meter to stand in, we would still have to be stacked up 3 in top of each other!!! (That is if we used the whole surface of the earth and there was no water!!!)

This is why I think the correct translation of Genesis 3:16 is "I will increase your pain and your conception". I think God's original plan was for us to reproduce at a much slower rate than we have seen.

 

[homewardbound]

They should only fill the earth and then could God stop that we could do that.

Very possibly.

I have a book that can explain this because we haven`t fill up the earth yet.I shall see if I can find it

We forget that a relatively small portion of the earth is inhabited. There are many regions that are uninhabitable, but we should remember that the earth was much different prior to the flood, and was likely capable of sustaining a considerably larger population than we see today. Some speculation on my part, but anything is possible with God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

White St*r,

I don't think your assumptions about the reproduction of the flies are correct. You are assuming that all of the fly maggots fed on decaying bodies, and that all of the resulting flies then obtained a blood meal from which to develop eggs. This would require a continuous supply of decaying bodies. These bodies would then actually be converted into flies. To feed that many flies all the animals on earth would have to die. When they all die the flies would only live for one month then they would die from lack of food.

Also, flies are also a food source for other creatures, thus would not live to reproduce in the numbers that you propose.

 

[KJVisTruth]

This is why I think the correct translation of Genesis 3:16 is "I will increase your pain and your conception". I think God's original plan was for us to reproduce at a much slower rate than we have seen.

I agree... also, pain can be in other forms than just physical. Women are more emotional than men.

 

[UBERROGO]

The fly example is one I have never heard before. But when the flies dies they dont become weightless and disappear. There are still dead flies on the Earth. Maybe I am not understanding you.