There must be uncaused cause even in an infinite chain.

[DaveInVain]

If God could come from nothing, then yes why can;t humans. But God didn't come from nothing, he Always was, he eternal before with no start, and last after with no end, and is not changing nor in motion, and time doesn't apply to him and change him.

Time doesn't apply to him. He has no quantifiable age like humans. He has no start.

If that is true, then what is his meaning? Cause and Effect does not apply to one such being.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I can prove it by math or by reason SithDoughnut, which is it?

Math uses reason, so you might as well do both.

 

[AskTheFamily]

If that is true, then what is his meaning? Cause and Effect does not apply to one such being.

What do you mean what is his meaning, all meaning and purpose is derived from him, it's better to ask what is your meaning and purpose.

 

[DaveInVain]

Paradoxes based on arithmetic with infinity

Let us look more attentively at the following arithmetic property of infinity:





This property explains a famous Paradox of Hilbert’s Hotel. Hilbert’s Hotel is a hotel with an infinite number of rooms and infinite number of guests. Every room is occupied. A new visitor arrives.

Can he be accommodated?

Yes, arithmetic with infinite quantities allows to do it.

Let x = 1. Then we have 1 + = .

What will be if infinite number of guests arrive? Can they be accommodated?

Yes, they will be accommodated thanks to property

.

Hotel is full, and yet it has an infinite number of vacancies.

 

[DaveInVain]

What do you mean what is his meaning, all meaning and purpose is derived from him, it's better to ask what is your meaning and purpose.

What is your point exactly? I have more meaning than god is what your saying? Or are you saying I have no meaning whatsoever?

 

[durangodawood]

Also logic has been taught for centuries, Aristotle, others whom taught logic through history, did they not accept, "from nothing, nothing follows" as self-evident fact?

A solid conclusion based on inductive reasoning from the behavior of the world around us.
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Universe is not outside time, if you want to talk about things outside time, give a new name, because universe refers to everything in time, you and I and the animals and trees and stars are all part of the universe and are in time.

Time is an aspect of order "in" our universe. There may well be many other universes. This has been conjectured by physicists. No one knows. And thats the main point: we have no basis for definitive statements about what a universe requires.
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SPACE and TIME are evident within the universe. But they may have NO application to the universe itself. And if time is not relevant, then neither is cause. Who knows?
.

 

[DaveInVain]

A solid conclusion based on inductive reasoning from the behavior of the world around us.
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Time is an aspect of order "in" our universe. There may well be many other universes. This has been conjectured by physists. No one knows. And thats the main point: we have no basis for definitive statements about what a universe requires.
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SPACE and TIME are evident within the universe. But they may have NO application to the universe itself. And if time is not relevant, then neither is cause. Who knows?
.

Good point.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Yes, arithmetic with infinite quantities allows to do it.

the arithmetic allows it because it's continous and we never reach the end. The arithmetic has no bearing on the reality, and it doesn't tell us the truth of that.

This is also true of Set theory, it doesn't prove anything on reality and doesn't disclose sure facts, specially, facts that contradict facts we know through intuitive math, like + 1 makes something more.

It would have be same infinity or less of people, and same infinity or more, with the hotel for it to work.

Time has series of points connecting, we can keeping going and going in disecting it, but despite the infinite possibility of disection, and the arethmatic, making these equal, we know 10 seconds is less then 20 seconds, no matter what Arethmatic or set theory says about the matter.

 

[AskTheFamily]

No one knows.
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It's coveniant to deny self-evident axioms to deny conclusions. But as I said, how do you know we don;t know by logic in itself?

By Logic? Why do you get to dictate the logic premises. Say you don't know, most humans I met will say this a sure fact. I don't believe you don;'t know, I believe your covering what you know.

Existence can't pop of out non-existence, and effects need a cause. If you want to deny these as sure facts go ahead.

 

[DaveInVain]

the arithmetic allows it because it's continous and we never reach the end. The arithmetic has no bearing on the reality, and it doesn't tell us the truth of that.

This is also true of Set theory, it doesn't prove anything on reality and doesn't disclose sure facts, specially, facts that contradict facts we know through intuitive math, like + 1 makes something more.

It would have be same infinity or less of people, and same infinity or more, with the hotel for it to work.

Time has series of points connecting, we can keeping going and going in disecting it, but despite the infinite possibility of disection, and the arethmatic, making these equal, we know 10 seconds is less then 20 seconds, no matter what Arethmatic or set theory says about the matter.

So, in all. We are arguing about meaningless vs meaningful. If the Universe was created by a singularity called the Big Bang, then we were created by chance rendering us meaningless. But, if we were made by a divine omnipotent being, then all of a sudden we are meaningful. Are you positive with complete metaphysical certitude that humans could not have lied about God.

 

[durangodawood]

Existence can't pop of out non-existence, and effects need a cause. If you want to deny these as sure facts go ahead.

Yes.... IN TIME. In a temporal framework.
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I'm not going to deny that me, my house, and my ideas needed a cause. And dont try to make it sound like I would.
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But the universe itself might "reside in eternity". And other universes as well, if they exist.
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[AskTheFamily]

Are you positive with complete metaphysical certitude that humans could not have lied about God.

I am positive with complete metaphysical certitude that many humans have lied about God and some humans have spoken the truth about God.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Yes.... IN TIME.
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You can limit to "in time" but don't expect the rest of us to, but the whole universe is in time. I really don't get what your imagining btw to even help you out.

But if something "popped" into existence or "changed", then it's time. Whatever changes or comes to existence, is in time by definition.

Again, I am part of the definition of the universe, and I am in time. So please talk sense.

 

[Zoot]

If time doesn't apply to God, God can't act, because to act is to change -to change from not having acted to having acted.

 

[durangodawood]

You can limit to "in time" but don't expect the rest of us to, but the whole universe is in time. I really don't get what your imagining btw to even help you out.

But if something "popped" into existence or "changed", then it's time. Whatever changes or comes to existence, is in time by definition.

Again, I am part of the definition of the universe, and I am in time. So please talk sense.

I am proposing ONE POSSIBLE solution that explains how the universe would not require a cause:
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ITS ETERNAL. Time takes place "inside" it. But the whole universe itself exists eternally and is not subject to the rules of objects inside a universe. There's no good reason why this could not be the case.
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AND. Ask any believer in God... they all believe in an eternal existence or realm. So the idea should NOT be too far out for you.
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[AskTheFamily]

I am proposing ONE POSSIBLE solution that explains how the universe would not require a cause:
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ITS ETERNAL. Time takes place "inside" it. But the whole universe itself exists eternally and is not subject to the rules of objects inside a universe. There's no good reason why this could not be the case.
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AND. Ask any believer in God... they all believe in an eternal existence or realm. So the idea should be too far out for you.
.

Did time start? How did start?

You want to say this mindless entity (your calling int he universe, but universe is the existence we know of, trees, planets, etc) is causing the universe, made time start? Has no cause...

Ok so you just making the Ultimate Cause mindless and powerless and without and somehow causing the whole universe and starting time.

what is inside of what and what does inside even mean here? Your talking jumbo, instead of facing reality.

 

[AskTheFamily]

If time doesn't apply to God, God can't act, because to act is to change -to change from not having acted to having acted.

When we apply action to God, we apply from our perspective, there is begining to his act of creation, from our prespective of time, but this is not necessarily true of God.

It's possible we can say he always Creator despite creation being limited and in time, we can't imagine how he ceaseless creaters with his Eternal Power of creation, but it's an obvious reality that is there a Creator whom doesn't change.

Everything that changes is in time, so yes God cannot change. However, his act of creation we precieve with a begining with respect to the time we in, but it doesn't mean we can say he is limited in time and under goes change.

In fact, we can say he is continously with his creation and acting and watching as far our preception of time is, but does not undergo change and time does not apply to God's Essence in reality, it just applies to how he relates to his creation in time.

 

[Zoot]

Well, at least you've thought about it.

 

[durangodawood]

Did time start? How did start?

You want to say this mindless entity (your calling int he universe, but universe is the existence we know of, trees, planets, etc) is causing the universe, made time start? Has no cause...

Ok so you just making the Ultimate Cause mindless and powerless and without and somehow causing the whole universe and starting time.

what is inside of what and what does inside even mean here? Your talking jumbo, instead of facing reality.

We can concieve of the universe as not just stuff... but the framework in which stuff happens.
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To vastly oversimplify, think of it as a greenhouse. It has dirt, plants, heat, water. But then there's the greenhouse itself. A different thing than its contents, perhaps built in the frozen arctic.
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I'm suggesting that the universe may "contain" space, time, and matter. But the universe itself may have its own sort of existence, not necessarily subject to the rules of space. time and matter. (Just like all the other possible universes.)
.

 

[AskTheFamily]

We can concieve of the universe as not just stuff... but the framework in which stuff happens.
.
To vastly oversimplify, think of it as a greenhouse. It has dirt, plants, heat, water. But then there's the greenhouse itself. A different thing than its contents, perhaps built in the frozen arctic.
.
I'm suggesting that the universe may "contain" space, time, and matter. But the universe itself may have its own sort of existence, not necessarily subject to the rules of space. time and matter.
.

So uncaused cause not subject to time space and matter, causes space time and matter?

Ok So we agree, I just disagree that it's possible a mindless eternal beginingless and endless thing can start time and cause change, and cause space, etc...so I conclude a Concious Creator did it.

However, we have come to the agreement of the conclusion. We are not only discussing the nature of the Uncaused Cause and to me it's evident it's not some sort of super brainless reality that starts time and causes time and space, and motion and energy but rather a conscious Creator that began it and maintains it.