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There is no such thing as "the rapture"
- Thread starter Ave Maria
- Start date
contrabar
Junior Member
not in the way that pre-trib doctrine teaches... Rev. 3:10 does not teach the act of being taken away before ever going through it... John 17:15 clearly shows that, using the same phrase "ek tereo", not to mention when we look at other verses talking of temptation, it never talks about being secretly snatched away before we ever go experience it... it always talks about endurance and perseverance in the face of or in the midst of temptation.
pre-trib constantly misinterprets the preposition "ek"... look up the term "ek" in other verses of the Bible. put it within the context of the verse, and compare it with how pre-trib doctrine defines it compared to its Biblical definition "out from" or "in the midst of"
we're not supposed to go into the Bible with our own personal opinion and try to find proof for it... if we do that, we can find proof for anything
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
What happens at the moment of the rapture:
1 Cor 15: 50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
1. Trumpet sounds
2. Dead rise
3. We are all changed - our bodies are glorified/redeemed. (clothed in immortality)
4. We are caught up to meet the Lord. (thone of God)
If you look through Revelation, is there anything in there describing the above?
Rev 6:
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 19:6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
1 Cor 15: 50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
1. Trumpet sounds
2. Dead rise
3. We are all changed - our bodies are glorified/redeemed. (clothed in immortality)
4. We are caught up to meet the Lord. (thone of God)
If you look through Revelation, is there anything in there describing the above?
Rev 6:
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 19:6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
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contrabar
Junior Member
...
Rev. 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
lest we not forget:
Rev. 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
The underlined speaks of the church.
Those who come to life after having been beheaded at the hands of the beast are also mentioned here:
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Notice that the white robes are given even though more will die at the hands of the beast.
1 Cor 15:
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The church is the 2nd firstfruits offering of the 1st harvest. "Those who belong to him" would be those who are beheaded at the hands of the beast.
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contrabar
Junior Member
and where does the Bible talk of a "first resurrection before the first resurrection"?
where does the Bible talk of "a last trumpet before the last trumpet"?
people were pushing this double talk nonsense and man-made doctrine in the 1830's as well... Samuel Tregelles saw that in his day
the only thing you show me is the lies and misinterpretations that Dispensationalists constantly push today.
where does the Bible talk of "a last trumpet before the last trumpet"?
people were pushing this double talk nonsense and man-made doctrine in the 1830's as well... Samuel Tregelles saw that in his day
the only thing you show me is the lies and misinterpretations that Dispensationalists constantly push today.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
Jesus himself as well as those who were raised just after him, the church, and those who are raised after being beheaded are all a part of the first resurrection.
It is the same as the field/harvest.
There is another resurrection after the millennium. It is the second field/harvest that is mentioned in scripture.
Amo 9:13¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
Again, understand the teaching of the harvest and firstfruits in Lev 23 and you will understand the first resurrection.
The gathering at the last trumpet is found in Joel 2.
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contrabar
Junior Member
you keep talking... I'm not gonna listen, because you're so hell-bent on trying to prove pre-trib is right, you will take any verse in the Bible and twist it to your liking.
The Word fo God says there is a first resurrection and a second resurrection... not a "first first resurrection" and a "second first resurrection", as dispensationalism teaches. Christ also taught unity within the church, and that includes Jews AND Gentiles... there is no separation, and God shows no favoritism to any race, gender, or nation. We are all treated the same, and we will all go through the great tribulation the same.
I suggest you get prepared for persecution, because that's exactly what tribulation is: persecution.
Christ not only taught Covenant Theology (Col. 3:11, Rom. 10:9-13, Eph2:11-22, Gal. 3:26-29, Gal. 6:15-16, Rom. 2:26-29), but post-trib as well (2 Thes. 2:1-4, 1 Thes. 5:1-4, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Matt. 24:13)
and when you aren't secretly snatched away, and you see the Antichrist revealed to the world, you'll see that you were taught a lie, and you won't be able to say "no one told me".
The Word fo God says there is a first resurrection and a second resurrection... not a "first first resurrection" and a "second first resurrection", as dispensationalism teaches. Christ also taught unity within the church, and that includes Jews AND Gentiles... there is no separation, and God shows no favoritism to any race, gender, or nation. We are all treated the same, and we will all go through the great tribulation the same.
I suggest you get prepared for persecution, because that's exactly what tribulation is: persecution.
Christ not only taught Covenant Theology (Col. 3:11, Rom. 10:9-13, Eph2:11-22, Gal. 3:26-29, Gal. 6:15-16, Rom. 2:26-29), but post-trib as well (2 Thes. 2:1-4, 1 Thes. 5:1-4, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Matt. 24:13)
and when you aren't secretly snatched away, and you see the Antichrist revealed to the world, you'll see that you were taught a lie, and you won't be able to say "no one told me".
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
As Lev 23 tells you, there are two firstfruits offerings per harvest. The first of the grain (Christ) and the first of the bread (church) are the firstfruits. Then the remainder of the field is harvested.
The catching away of the church (the 2nd firstfruits offering of the 1st harvest) happens when the invaders are about to come into Israel when the sun/moon darken/stars fall after the nearly 2000 year tribulation is cut short. Then the time of wrath begins during which the devil and his pals perform false miracles to deceive people, even the elect (of Israel) "if it were possible", which are sealed and cared for during the time of wrath.
Amos 7:
1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up.
The catching away of the church is definitely "post-tribulation", "pre-wrath" and takes place when the Day of the Lord is beginning.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
Everyone who is capable of reading can read the Bible and see what it says. We definitely won't be here during the bowls of wrath. The church is given her "fine linen, clean and bright" (white robes - clothes of immortality) in the 5th seal, after the tribulation and before the 42 months of the time of wrath.
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contrabar
Junior Member
God NEVER said He would physically remove us from His "thumos" wrath... just as God protected Noah from the flood while Noah went thru it, and just how God protected the Jews from the plagues while they went through it, God will protect us from His "thumos" wrath while we go through it.
no scripture in the Bible says that God will make people secretly fly away from wrath... the wrath in which we are not appointed to via 1 Thess. 1:10 & 1 Thess. 5:9 is the judgment that unbelievers will face: the Second death.
no scripture in the Bible says that God will make people secretly fly away from wrath... the wrath in which we are not appointed to via 1 Thess. 1:10 & 1 Thess. 5:9 is the judgment that unbelievers will face: the Second death.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
There is no "secret". A very loud trumpet will sound, graves will open, bodies will rise, people will disappear - snatched to the throne of God. There's nothing "secret" about it.
The church has to be removed from the situation so that God can allow His wrath, including allowing the devil his 42 months, to take place. The church was empowered to overcome all the power of the devil. We speak and the devil runs. We have to be removed so that the devil can "reign".
Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Rev 7 shows that the church is standing before the throne of God, singing about salvation, wearing our "white robes" (immortal clothes) before the Day of Wrath begins. The one's God protects on earth through the time of wrath are the 144,000 of Israel (related to the woman who gave birth) as Rev 9 says.
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contrabar
Junior Member
no, the church doesn't have to be removed... if it was removed, then those who are saved during the great tribulation would have to be raptured as well, because according to your false teaching, the Holy Spirit must be removed, along with the church, and the only way the Holy Spirit can be removed from the earth is by removing those who are saved during the great tribulation.
pre-trib is nothing but double talk, and you fell for it
pre-trib is nothing but double talk, and you fell for it
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contrabar
Junior Member
Christ says it beautifully in Matthew 24:29-31:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I'll still be here when you see the Man of Sin appear to the world, and you will be too...
until that time, we will wait, and just see who was right: dispensational premillennialism or Jesus Christ.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I'll still be here when you see the Man of Sin appear to the world, and you will be too...
until that time, we will wait, and just see who was right: dispensational premillennialism or Jesus Christ.
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom, according to Jesus in John 3. When Jesus appears with the dead in Christ and the graves open, and people are changed, only those who are alive and born again will go with the dead in Christ.
It's the same thing as the 10 virgins. 5 were ready, 5 were not ready.
People who come to believe after we are gone will be beheaded and imprisoned for their beliefs.
The Holy Spirit is not removed. The church is removed. The 144,000 of Israel are on earth, sealed and protected during the time of wrath. (Rev 7 and 9)
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trialbyfire
Well-Known Member
What did Jesus say happens after the tribulation is cut short, which you didn't post?~
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1. Desolation of Israel
2. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, gospel to the world - seals 1-4)
3. Tribulation cut short (sun & moon darken,stars fall, gathering of the elect - seal 6)
4. False Christ, false prophet perform false miracles - trumpets 5-7 of seal #7
What you are missing about verse 29-31 is what Jesus is saying.
He says the tribulation is cut short when the sun and moon darken, stars fall. He says the world will see the sign of Christ and mourn. He says they WILL also see Jesus coming on the clouds. He then goes back to what he was saying about what happens when the sun and moon darken, stars fall - gathering at a loud trumpet call.
Look again:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, [and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ]
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Remove the underlined sentence that speaks of what the mourning tribes WILL see later and you can see it. This order of events is confirmed by Rev 6, 7 as well as Joel 2. It's also sort of mentioned in Zech 14. - God fights for Israel, stands on the mount, and then he comes on the clouds later.
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Son of Israel
Well-Known Member
Second coming?
I noticed a lot of comments including that wording "second coming". As important and definitive as that phrase appears to be to people, what verse can that phrase be found in the Bible?
Thanks
I noticed a lot of comments including that wording "second coming". As important and definitive as that phrase appears to be to people, what verse can that phrase be found in the Bible?
Thanks
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