There is no such thing as a "rapture" for believers!!

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

Regarding whether we go up or come back down: I think you've become so immersed in eschatology as a formal discipline that you've lost sight of the most natural reading of the text.

Well, that's just it. I simply don't see anyone going to heaven. And I don't see any reason for anyone to go there. Jesus will be on earth, to rule over the nations with a rod of iron. And all believers will be reigning with Him. So I can't imagine why anyone would be in heaven.

That's why you can't see my point of view. Not that the "most natural reading" is necessarily correct, but it does have a hold on me.

What I still don't see is the purpose of believers going to heaven. Could you clarify, and is there any Scripture that leans that way. I've seen nothing to suggest going to heaven.

Let me try to reawaken your natural perspective. When I first got saved, I thought I was supposed to go out and witness. And so I did. When I confronted people, I had conversations like this:

"What happens when you die?"
"I go to heaven because I have faith in Christ."

"What happens when Jesus comes back, if you are still alive?"
"Same thing. I go to heaven because I have faith in Christ."

You see? That's the NATURAL perspective of the Christian.

My guess is that you were taught that way. If it was "natural", it would have been seen in Scripture.

Rev 20 is very clear to me that "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected/changed. All of them. And then the Millennial reign.

Here's the sort of conversation that YOU are envisioning:

"What happens when you die?"
"Jesus thrusts me up into mid-air for a moment, then thrusts me back to the earth for 1,000 years."

No, that's not what i envision. When a believer dies, they are "at home with the Lord". That's heaven, for sure.

"What happens when Jesus comes back, if you are still alive?"
"Same thing."

Not my vision at all.

My answer to that question is: I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and reign with Christ in His kingdom.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

At this point the guy walks away muttering to himself: "Christians are completely looney!"

When those answers are given that you propose, I would agree with him.

It's precisely because your theory looks like the completely looney option to me, that I would have at least expected Paul to MENTION it if it were true.

I am still perplexed why it seems looney that living believers stay with Jesus "when He comes" back. It is the most natural thing to me. I know Jesus begins His Millennial reign "when He comes" back. That is clearly taught. And 1 Thess 4 says we will be "with Him forever".

You are saying that MY view requires explicit mention.

I'm saying it should be shown. I don't ask for specific words.

On the contrary, I would think that your view calls for explicit mention.

I believe I've shown that.

That's my reservation here. I admit this is just my gut reaction but it still has a powerful hold on me.

Hm. "gut-reaction" kinda sounds like emotions. I try to always avoid emotions when studying the Bible.

 

[JAL]

My answer to that question is: I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and reign with Christ in His kingdom.

You're paraphrasing it to make it sound better. You said:
1. The still-living unbelievers are staying on earth.
2. All the saints pop up to mid-air.
3. Then pop back to the same planet earth as the unbelievers to live in the same world we are already living in.

That's counterintuitive because this horrible world is precisely what I'm so desperate to leave forever. The natural inclination is that, when Christ returns, unbelievers go to one place (hell) and believers go to an entirely different place whether:
A. Heaven (possibly the most natural inclination)
B. A new earth

You've got all the believers living alongside unbelievers! At some point I might accept your view - but not on the basis of it being more intuitive. I just don't see that happening.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
My answer to that question is: I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and reign with Christ in His kingdom.

You're paraphrasing it to make it sound better.

No, I was quoting Scripture. 1 Cor 15:52 and 2 Tim 2:12.

You said:
1. The still-living unbelievers are staying on earth.
2. All the saints pop up to mid-air.
3. Then pop back to the same planet earth as the unbelievers to live in the same world we are already living in.

Never used the words "pop up" or "pop back". The biblical description is "gathered up". Nor did I say "mid-air". The Bible says "in the clouds" or 'with the clouds".

That's counterintuitive because this horrible world is precisely what I'm so desperate to leave forever.

Here, you are adding your opinion and wishes which is counter-intuitive to what God has already said about what's to come. Our opinions don't matter when the plan has already been laid out.

The natural inclination is that, when Christ returns, unbelievers go to one place (hell) and believers go to an entirely different place whether:
A. Heaven (possibly the most natural inclination)
B. A new earth

There is a big difference between 'the natural inclination' and reality as found in God's Word.

You've got all the believers living alongside unbelievers!

Nope, never said that. They will reigning WITH Christ. So, who will be ruled by Christ? The mortals on earth. Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers. The nations, in fact.

At some point I might accept your view - but not on the basis of it being more intuitive. I just don't see that happening.

No sweat. But it is the Bible's view. I just believe it.

 

[JAL]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
My answer to that question is: I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and reign with Christ in His kingdom.

They will reigning WITH Christ. So, who will be ruled by Christ? The mortals on earth. Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers. The nations, in fact.

Of course I'm not questioning that the martyrs will reign - just whether all the rest of us will be there too. One more thing that possibly lends a modicum of doubt to your claim. Or stated differently, lends support to my claim at post 448 that Rev 20 is referring to landed-ness for martyrs and thus to two "resurrections" (two landings), one for the martyrs, and the other for the rest of the saints. Rev 20 describes the second resurrection thus:

"5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

The term "life" is typically a technical term in John's writings (even his epistles) for Life in Christ. It's rare that unbelievers would be described as coming to life. As often as possible, the biblical writers prefer to apply the term "death" to them. Notice how Rev 20 describes the final resurrection of unbelievers:

"Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

So going back to the verse 5:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

In my eyes, that's a description of the saints coming to live again, but specifically, as I said, a landed life (presumably on the new earth). Thus we have:

1. Only the martyred saints are landed for 1,000 years. (We might also add here still-living unbelievers)
2. This confirms that the rest of us saints DID all go up to heaven at the rapture.
3. After 1,000 years the rest of us saints will get landed.

That's my current reading. I don't know if that will change, but that's where I'm at now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course I'm not questioning that the martyrs will reign - just whether all the rest of us will be there too.

I don't understand why this is a hang-up for you. The Bible clearly speaks of the saved resurrection in the singular. And Rev 20 calls the resurrection of the Trib martyrs the FIRST one. So it should be a no-brainer. And so does 1 Cor 15:23. It says "when He comes" meaning the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. This proves that ALL believers from all time will receive glorified bodies at the same event.

One more thing that possibly lends a modicum of doubt to your claim. Or stated differently, lends support to my claim at post 448 that Rev 20 is referring to landed-ness for martyrs and thus to two "resurrections" (two landings), one for the martyrs, and the other for the rest of the saints. Rev 20 describes the second resurrection thus:

"5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

I wasn't sure what you meant by "landed-ness" in your previous post, but I think I see your point here.

Yes, Rev 20 refers to a SECOND resurrection, at the end of the Millennium. Well, gotta ask yourself; what's at the end of the Millennial reign? Rev 20:11-15 tells us clearly; the GWT judgment. That's where ALL the unsaved go to receive their "degree" before being cast into the LoF. Jesus taught in Matt 10 and 12 that "it will be more tolerable for citizens of Sodom & Gomorrha than" citizens in several cities in Jesus' day. This means that the GWT judgment is to determine how tolerable it will be for each of the unsaved while in the LoF.

iow, it will be more tolerable for some than others, and it will be less tolerable for some than others.

And, Acts 24:15 very clearly says there will be a resurrection (singular) for the saved and a resurrection (singular) for the unsaved.

So, problem solved. Or should be. All believers will be resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent. And all unbelievers will be resurrected to the GWT at the end of the Millennium.

And then...we will have a new heaven and new earth; Rev 21:1. The eternal state.

The term "life" is typically a technical term in John's writings (even his epistles) for Life in Christ. It's rare that unbelievers would be described as coming to life.

I have no problem understanding this to mean that unbelievers will (temporarily) get their physical bodies back before being thrown into the LoF. Since it is also called the SECOND death, that might refer to their physical bodies getting to die twice.

As often as possible, the biblical writers prefer to apply the term "death" to them. Notice how Rev 20 describes the final resurrection of unbelievers:

"Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Exactly. Just what I wrote above, even before I read this paragraph. I normally respond as I go through a post. I makes some people nuts when I do this, but it makes me nuts when those others read a whole post and then just make some general comments, without specifically addressing ANY of my points. Grrrr. (I'm calm, really I am.)

So going back to the verse 5:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

In my eyes, that's a description of the saints coming to live again, but specifically, as I said, a landed life (presumably on the new earth).

You need to resolve the issue of WHAT happens at the end of the Millennium and WHEN the GWT judgment occurs and WHEN the new heaven and earth appear. I mean, the order.

Thus we have:

1. Only the martyred saints are landed for 1,000 years. (We might also add here still-living unbelievers)
2. This confirms that the rest of us saints DID all go up to heaven at the rapture.
3. After 1,000 years the rest of us saints will get landed.

That's my current reading. I don't know if that will change, but that's where I'm at now.

So now, go back to the drawing board and figure out where each event occurs:

1. GWT judgment
2. LoF
3. new heaven and earth

My understanding, straight out of Rev 20 and 21 is this:

1. Second Advent
2. resurrection/rapture of ALL believers, meaning ALL believers have glorified bodies, with which to reign with Christ.
3. Millennial kingdom, over the surviving unbelievers of the Trib.
4. brief battle of Gog and Magog, then ALL unbelievers killed.
5. second resurrection of all unbelievers, back into their physical bodies. God is fully able to put ALL the atoms and molecules back together to restore the natural bodies.
6. LoF for all the unbelievers
7. new heaven and new earth.

 

[JAL]

@FreeGrace2,

Let me put the argument another way. Rev 20 speaks of two seemingly EXHAUSTIVE groups.


1. Martyrs.
2. The rest of the dead did not come to life....

The word 'rest' implies an exhaustion. Who are the rest of the dead? Let's assume that I'm wrong about landed people - let's pretend he means "people in general". In that case, the "rest" means that NO ONE else has resurrected yet, which fits neither you nor me.

A bit busy right now....I'll try to come back when I can.

 

[ShineyDays2]

They will reigning WITH Christ. So, who will be ruled by Christ? The mortals on earth. Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers. The nations, in fact.

This is absolutely ludicrous! Nowhere in the etire Bible does it show, or even imply that "believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who wiill rule over the unbelievers." Give me one, just one verse that you genterated this false doctrine from.

Bottom line is that "glorified saints" are ALWAYS IN HEAVEN TO STAY!!!!I would be very upset if Jesus brought me back from being with God down to live on this sin-cursed earth even for an hour let alone for a thousand years!!! Get real!

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

Let me put the argument another way. Rev 20 speaks of two seemingly EXHAUSTIVE groups.


1. Martyrs.
2. The rest of the dead did not come to life....

v.5 refers to all the unbelievers who will be called to the GWT judgment.

The word 'rest' implies an exhaustion. Who are the rest of the dead? Let's assume that I'm wrong about landed people - let's pretend he means "people in general". [/.QUOTE]
No, it's simply all the unbelievers who were killed by Jesus at the battle of Gog and Magog.

In that case, the "rest" means that NO ONE else has resurrected yet, which fits neither you nor me.]/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I'm not following this.

My timeline is found in post #465.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
They will reigning WITH Christ. So, who will be ruled by Christ? The mortals on earth. Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers. The nations, in fact.

This is absolutely ludicrous! Nowhere in the etire Bible does it show, or even imply that "believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who wiill rule over the unbelievers." Give me one, just one verse that you genterated this false doctrine from.

Let's start with the biblical teaching that there is a resurrection (singular) of the saved and a resurrection (singular) of the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. PROVEN

The singular resurrrection will occur at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "when He comes" is the 2nd Advent. "those who belong to Him" refers to ALL believers from all time.

Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection and implies all the unbelievers as the second one.

Bottom line is that "glorified saints" are ALWAYS IN HEAVEN TO STAY!!!!

Now for the reigning of believers with Christ.

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

It is clear that to "share in His glory" refers to reigning with Him when He reigns and rules the nations with a rod of iron. (Rev 29:15)

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

There. I have provided Scripture from which I am informed.

I would be very upset if Jesus brought me back from being with God down to live on this sin-cursed earth even for an hour let alone for a thousand years!!! Get real!

Well, I can't help your emotional state regarding God's plan for mankind and believers, but I've shown you the "game plan".

 

[JAL]

v.5 refers to all the unbelievers who will be called to the GWT judgment.

That doesn't seem to meet the exhaustion. The perspective is PRIOR to the 1,000 years and thus before the rapture period (I say before because these martyrs are dead people ABOUT to come to life). At THIS point John speaks of the "dead" exhaustively consisting of two groups.

1. Martyrs. These people are DEAD.
(Ok, who else is dead?)
2. The rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years.

The martyrs are still dead. This means the rapture is not finished yet. Therefore both believers and unbelievers are still dead. EVERYONE is dead (all fit in the dead category unless he is speaking of landed people ONLY, which is my solution). Then, says Rev 20,

1. Martyrs are first to rise, for 1,000 years.
2. THEN, the rest of the dead (the EVERYONE) both believers and unbelievers rise, after the 1,000 years.

That's where YOUR reading extrapolates, and it fits neither your nor my view of the rapture.

I haven't had time to read all your posts, maybe I missed something. I'll check when I can.

 

[ShineyDays2]

I've shown you the "game plan".

No, you have not shown me GOD'S plan at all. You have shown me YOUR devised game plan of which you can't deny that there is not one instance in the entire bible when God sent a "glorified" body back to earth to live for 1 day let alone 1,000 years unless you twist verses to comply with "mans wishes".

 

[JAL]

@FreeGrace2,

The exhaustion problem also leads to a redundancy issue uncomfortable to me.

"5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended."

YOU claim this refers to unbelievers. That isn't useful information, because it is then redundant to what he says a few verses later:

"11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

In fact, the text becomes clearer if he OMITS verse 5. On the other hand, if the earlier verses are referring to the landing of saints (if he was exhausting THAT group), he's providing new information:
1. Martyrs are the first to land. They reign 1,000 years
(Ok. What about the rest of the saints. Did they land too? Do they reign too?)
2. No. The 1,000 was a privilege for the martyrs. All other saints land after 1,000 years (presumably on the new earth).

That's helpful information - information IMPOSSIBLE to deduce from the remaining verses, in fact from anything written in the NT. It's not redundant. This makes me more comfortable.

You need to resolve the issue of WHAT happens at the end of the Millennium and WHEN the GWT judgment occurs and WHEN the new heaven and earth appear. I mean, the order.

I seem to detect some bias in these kinds of statements.

1. You want us to take your one-resurrection texts strictly/literally.
2. When we show you last-hour or last-day verses, you explain them away as "summary verses" (you see these verses as flexible).
3. When we ask you to regard other verses such as GWT as summary/flexible verses, you balk because it doesn't fit YOUR conclusions.

Let me repeat what I said before. I don't believe that ANY eschatology is clearly articulated in Scripture. Until we receive enough Direct Revelation to know for sure what God is saying, we're largely stabbing in the dark as Bible students. Until then, about the most we can say for sure about Revelation, as ShinyDays2 stated, is: "God wins!"

I'm not saying it's a total waste of time. I'm merely averse to someone claiming he's got it all figured out for sure.

 

[JAL]

I have no problem understanding this to mean that unbelievers will (temporarily) get their physical bodies back before being thrown into the LoF. Since it is also called the SECOND death, that might refer to their physical bodies getting to die twice.

I'm not saying your reading is logically impossible. But John could easily have worded it differently, and I think he almost certainly would have, since he prefers to apply the term "life" to believers. I'm more comfortable with my reading.

 

[JAL]

Bottom line is that "glorified saints" are ALWAYS IN HEAVEN TO STAY!!!!I would be very upset if Jesus brought me back from being with God down to live on this sin-cursed earth even for an hour let alone for a thousand years!!! Get real!

I feel your pain on this. That's precisely what I consider to be the most natural reading of the text, but he's trying to convince me that I am the one reading it unnaturally.

Rev 20 moves me to make an exception to the natural reading - but I see this exception applicable to the martyrs alone. It would take an awful lot of convincing for me to apply it to all the saints.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
v.5 refers to all the unbelievers who will be called to the GWT judgment.

That doesn't seem to meet the exhaustion.

"all" means exhaustion. Unless you just meant real tired.

The perspective is PRIOR to the 1,000 years and thus before the rapture period (I say before because these martyrs are dead people ABOUT to come to life). At THIS point John speaks of the "dead" exhaustively consisting of two groups.

1. Martyrs. These people are DEAD.
(Ok, who else is dead?)

All the saints who are already IN heaven and will be coming back to earth with Christ. Rev 19.

2. The rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years.

This can only refer to all unbelievers, since ALL of the believers have been resurrected in the SINGLE resurrection that occurs "when He comes", according to 1 Cor 15:23.

The martyrs are still dead. This means the rapture is not finished yet.

I don't understand this. They will be raised WHEN He comes.

Therefore both believers and unbelievers are still dead. EVERYONE is dead (all fit in the dead category unless he is speaking of landed people ONLY, which is my solution). Then, says Rev 20,

1. Martyrs are first to rise, for 1,000 years.
2. THEN, the rest of the dead (the EVERYONE) both believers and unbelievers rise, after the 1,000 years.

Sorry, but you are still confused.

In post #465 I listed this order of things.

My understanding, straight out of Rev 20 and 21 is this:

1. Second Advent
2. resurrection/rapture of ALL believers, meaning ALL believers have glorified bodies, with which to reign with Christ.
3. Millennial kingdom, over the surviving unbelievers of the Trib.
4. brief battle of Gog and Magog, then ALL unbelievers killed.
5. second resurrection of all unbelievers, back into their physical bodies. God is fully able to put ALL the atoms and molecules back together to restore the natural bodies.
6. LoF for all the unbelievers
7. new heaven and new earth.

That's where YOUR reading extrapolates, and it fits neither your nor my view of the rapture.

I'm still not sure of your view of the "rapture" but my view comes straight out of the Bible.

I haven't had time to read all your posts, maybe I missed something. I'll check when I can.

Ah, this may be the issue. That's why I recopied the list for you here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I've shown you the "game plan".

No, you have not shown me GOD'S plan at all. You have shown me YOUR devised game plan of which you can't deny that there is not one instance in the entire bible when God sent a "glorified" body back to earth to live for 1 day let alone 1,000 years unless you twist verses to comply with "mans wishes".

Huh? Of course NO ONE has yet been given a glorified, other than Jesus Himself.

Are you reading my posts, or what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2,

The exhaustion problem also leads to a redundancy issue uncomfortable to me.

"5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended."

YOU claim this refers to unbelievers. That isn't useful information, because it is then redundant to what he says a few verses later:

"11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I think this PROVES that the "rest of the dead" is what v.11 is about.

Recall, there are ONLY 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 (for the saved).

In fact, the text becomes clearer if he OMITS verse 5. On the other hand, if the earlier verses are referring to the landing of saints (if he was exhausting THAT group), he's providing new information:
1. Martyrs are the first to land. They reign 1,000 years
(Ok. What about the rest of the saints. Did they land too? Do they reign too?)
2. No. The 1,000 was a privilege for the martyrs. All other saints land after 1,000 years (presumably on the new earth).

The word "landedness" just doesn't work for me. Makes no sense. There are living believers and dead believers. Living unbelievers and dead unbelievers.

1. You want us to take your one-resurrection texts strictly/literally.

I have. They are mentioned in the SINGULAR.

2. When we show you last-hour or last-day verses, you explain them away as "summary verses" (you see these verses as flexible).

Not "flexible" but just a summary. Why don't you believe that the Bible summarizes things in some verses?

3. When we ask you to regard other verses such as GWT as summary/flexible verses, you balk because it doesn't fit YOUR conclusions.

What? I don't remember anyone asking that. How would the GWT be a summary verse. It reads straightforward as the singular resurrection and judgment of all the unbelievers.

Let me repeat what I said before. I don't believe that ANY eschatology is clearly articulated in Scripture.

I've given what IS clear. And with verses.

Until we receive enough Direct Revelation to know for sure what God is saying, we're largely stabbing in the dark as Bible students. Until then, about the most we can say for sure about Revelation, as ShinyDays2 stated, is: "God wins!"

I don't believe in direct revelation. Too much room for anyone making up anything by saying "well, God told me". Nonsense. When the Canon was complete, God's revelation was complete.

I'm not saying it's a total waste of time. I'm merely averse to someone claiming he's got it all figured out for sure.

I never said that. I showed you what the Bible says.

If you can show or prove that any of the verses I have cited/quoted don't say what I claim they say, please do.

I don't want to be wrong any more than any other person does.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not saying your reading is logically impossible. But John could easily have worded it differently, and I think he almost certainly would have, since he prefers to apply the term "life" to believers. I'm more comfortable with my reading.

Why do you think John "would have"? He didn't. His wording is available for all to see.

 

[ShineyDays2]

Nope, never said that. They will reigning WITH Christ. So, who will be ruled by Christ? The mortals on earth. Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers. The nations, in fact.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I've shown you the "game plan".
Huh? Of course NO ONE has yet been given a glorified, other than Jesus Himself.

Are you reading my posts, or what?

Quote...."Believers in glorified bodies will assist Christ who will rule over the unbelievers..." The scene you present is on the earth for your literal 1,000 years...claiming that the believers, having glorified bodies will be assisting Christ as he rules [on earth].

Therefore, I totally disagree first that there is a literal 1,000 year millennium for any "glorified" bodies to be leaving the Heavenly Jerusalem to be returning to earth in their "glorified bodies."

 

[JAL]

@FreeGrace2,

Ok I give up. Your lack of objectivity is really glaring here. Several times I've explained the issue of exhaustion and you just gloss right over it. If 100 people exist, and 15 are martyrs, and I say "the rest of the people came to life after 1,000 years," that "rest" MUST mean 85 people, to exhaust the category. And if that number 85 contradicts my theology, it's time to revise my theology. At the very least I need to CLARIFY, in a logically CONSISTENT way (emphasis on consistent), what category is being exhausted by "rest". All sides of the debate face this issue including mine, and the only solution I've managed to conjecture is landed-ness. (I don't LIKE that solution but at least I have one). Glossing over it, as you have done, certainly doesn't work for me. You won't listen to reason, you won't acknowledge bias (e.g. you unilaterally decide which verses may serve as summary verses), you just keep repeating assertions despite any amount of counter-evidence. This probably isn't deliberate - you seem too irrevocably indoctrinated into your current set of opinions to even be aware that you're not listening to reason. I don't know how to fix that.

I can't sit here wasting my time with continual and invincible sheer assertion.

I don't believe in direct revelation. Too much room for anyone making up anything by saying "well, God told me". Nonsense. When the Canon was complete, God's revelation was complete.

You're really embarrassing yourself here with this kind of silly comment. I can see your ignorance of Direct-Revelation apologetics is as profound as your ignorance of materialism proved to be. But that's to be expected - clearly you have a tunnel vision capable of perceiving only those opinions that you are currently indoctrinated/locked into. I don't see any room here for learning, teachability, or even a comprehensive defense of your current stance. Earlier you taught me some things about eschatology, opened my eyes to a different point of view, but that progress has now stagnated. Evidently it has run its course.


Enjoy. You can have the last word - I expect it will be another shallow "rebuttal" of the exhaustion issue combined with another accusation that I'm the one not listening to reason. Here's my response in advance: Whatever.

Unwatching this thread. Enjoy.