There is no such thing as a "rapture" for believers!!

Status
Not open for further replies.

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The view by the majority of evangelicals today is that there will be a rapture, per 1 Thess 4 and those living on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 and then be taken up to heaven. All this will occur before the Great Tribulation.

One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".

Matt 24-
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

v.29 identifies the timing of this gathering to e "immediately after the distress", which is a reference to the Great Tribulation.

v.31 mentions a trumpet call, and angels will "gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other". This is essentially what 1 Cor 15:52 says.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The red words refer to ALL the saints already in heaven, who will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words refers to all the believers alive on earth when He comes.

It is a common view among pre-tribulationists that the resurrection will be in "stages", or "waves" or a "series" of events, all of which is needed to accomodate the different verses that deal with resurrection.

However, the Bible is clear that there will be only ONE event, called the resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means one for each.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

So, iow, all believers will participate in that singular event called "the resurrection".

One more passage that shows when this event will take place and what happens after believers are resurrected.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refer to Tribulation martyrs, and how they died and why.

The blue words refer to their resurrection when they receive their glorified bodies, and shows what they do after receiving their resurrection bodies; they will reign with Christ for the Millennial reign of Christ. So this will include ALL believers, since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

The green words clearly describe this resurrection as the "FIRST" resurrection.

Since there is only one resurrection for saved people, it occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus Christ returns to earth to reign on earth for 1,000 years.

So, there is no trip to heaven after the dead and living saints receive their glorified bodies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAL and DaveM

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,774
1,309
sg
✟214,848.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The view by the majority of evangelicals today is that there will be a rapture, per 1 Thess 4 and those living on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 and then be taken up to heaven. All this will occur before the Great Tribulation.

One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".

Matt 24-
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

v.29 identifies the timing of this gathering to e "immediately after the distress", which is a reference to the Great Tribulation.

v.31 mentions a trumpet call, and angels will "gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other". This is essentially what 1 Cor 15:52 says.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The red words refer to ALL the saints already in heaven, who will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words refers to all the believers alive on earth when He comes.

It is a common view among pre-tribulationists that the resurrection will be in "stages", or "waves" or a "series" of events, all of which is needed to accomodate the different verses that deal with resurrection.

However, the Bible is clear that there will be only ONE event, called the resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means one for each.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

So, iow, all believers will participate in that singular event called "the resurrection".

One more passage that shows when this event will take place and what happens after believers are resurrected.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refer to Tribulation martyrs, and how they died and why.

The blue words refer to their resurrection when they receive their glorified bodies, and shows what they do after receiving their resurrection bodies; they will reign with Christ for the Millennial reign of Christ. So this will include ALL believers, since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

The green words clearly describe this resurrection as the "FIRST" resurrection.

Since there is only one resurrection for saved people, it occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus Christ returns to earth to reign on earth for 1,000 years.

So, there is no trip to heaven after the dead and living saints receive their glorified bodies.

The Great Tribulation is known as "Jacob's trouble".

What do you think is God's objective for letting the Body of Christ undergo something that is meant for Israel?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: sandman
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The Great Tribulation is known as "Jacob's trouble".

What do you think is God's objective for letting the Body of Christ undergo something that is meant for Israel?
Actually, the Tribulation is meant for the whole world. I assume you have read all of Revelation.

Speaking of "the Body of Christ", the VAST majority of them are already in heaven, so the ones still alive and remain when Jesus comes to earth will be just a small fraction of the totay.

However, all this is irrelevant to who will be involved in the resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

If you are able to prove that my analysis on this verse is incorrect, please do.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,954
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,790.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The view by the majority of evangelicals today is that
there will be a rapture, per 1 Thess 4 and those living on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 and
then be taken up to heaven.
According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, the following order occurs--all in the last day.
Jesus appears on the clouds,
one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind,
ascent of the saints to meet Jesus in the air,
descent to earth with Jesus (parousia),
one and only (final) judgment (sheep and goats).
All this will occur before the Great Tribulation.

One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".

Matt 24-
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

v.29 identifies the timing of this gathering to e "immediately after the distress", which is a reference to the Great Tribulation.

v.31 mentions a trumpet call, and angels will "gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other". This is essentially what 1 Cor 15:52 says.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The red words refer to ALL the saints already in heaven, who will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words refers to all the believers alive on earth when He comes.

It is a common view among pre-tribulationists that the resurrection will be in "stages", or "waves" or a "series" of events, all of which is needed to accomodate the different verses that deal with resurrection.

However, the Bible is clear that there will be only ONE event, called the resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means one for each.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

So, iow, all believers will participate in that singular event called "the resurrection".

One more passage that shows when this event will take place and what happens after believers are resurrected.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refer to Tribulation martyrs, and how they died and why.

The blue words refer to their resurrection when they receive their glorified bodies, and shows what they do after receiving their resurrection bodies; they will reign with Christ for the Millennial reign of Christ. So this will include ALL believers, since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

The green words clearly describe this resurrection as the "FIRST" resurrection.

Since there is only one resurrection for saved people, it occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus Christ returns to earth to reign on earth for 1,000 years.

So, there is no trip to heaven after the dead and living saints receive their glorified bodies.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, the following order occurs--all in the last day.
Jesus appears on the clouds,
one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind,
ascent of the saints to meet Jesus in the air,
descent to earth with Jesus (parousia),
one and only (final) judgment (sheep and goats).
Interesting. Thanks.

However, just ask a variety of evangelicals today what they understand of "the rapture".

I've been in a number of churches. None of them taught a single resurrection, which occurs at the Second Advent.

I have also noticed a great number of posts on FB preaching on the "Rapture", which includes missing the Trib and getting a trip to heaven.

Maybe not too many believers have read the book you cited.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,774
1,309
sg
✟214,848.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually, the Tribulation is meant for the whole world. I assume you have read all of Revelation.

Speaking of "the Body of Christ", the VAST majority of them are already in heaven, so the ones still alive and remain when Jesus comes to earth will be just a small fraction of the totay.

However, all this is irrelevant to who will be involved in the resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

If you are able to prove that my analysis on this verse is incorrect, please do.

I don't want to be wrong any more than you do.

So the "small fraction of the total" that were "unlucky enough" to undergo the Tribulation, if any of them take the mark of the beast because they want to buy and sell, they will lose their salvation?

Do you think that is what God wants for them?
 
Upvote 0

sandman

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2003
2,458
1,640
MI
✟119,129.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Constitution
One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".
I guess that depends on what you think of the Word of God....
If you believe what Galatians 1: 11&12 states.... then most certainly all of which is written throughout the Epistles including Thessalonians and Corinthians. Whether He spoke in red or spoke by revelation ....both are words of Jesus Christ.
As for the Latin word Rapiemur or Rapturo =rapture it’s not and different that using the word trinity, which is not in the Bible …but we all know what it stands for.


Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
19,644
3,658
Midlands
Visit site
✟551,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I accepted the imminent, secret, pre-trib rapture in my early days as a believer. This was in the early 70s when the book "Late Great Planet Earth" was in the rounds. Eventually, the Spirit led me in scripture to see that not only was there no such event but we have been warned against being deceived regarding such.

2 Thess 2
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Essentially, the first resurrection will happen at the last trump, on the last day, after the great tribulation.
Some suggest that this discussion is not important and the difference does not matter. Apparently, Paul thought it mattered and warned us about it with the above scripture. Also in Heb 6:1-3, we are told that if we do not excel in the elementary doctrines of Christ, we may not be allowed to go on to maturity. One of the elementary doctrines of Christ is the "resurrection of the dead."

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.

The implication of verse 3 is that if you do not have the foundation of these 6 teachings, God may not allow you to go on to more mature doctrine.

  1. repentance from dead works and of
  2. faith in God,
  3. instruction about baptisms,
  4. the laying on of hands,
  5. the resurrection of the dead, and <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
  6. eternal judgment.
So to knowingly allow yourself to be deceived about the first resurrection timing is pretty dangerous. It is disobedience and nigh unto rebellion. Not being judgmental or anything... just taking the warning seriously.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Petros2015

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2016
5,088
4,321
52
undisclosed Bunker
✟287,661.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching, the following order occurs--all in the last day.
Jesus appears on the clouds,
one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind,
ascent of the saints to meet Jesus in the air,
descent to earth with Jesus (parousia),
one and only (final) judgment (sheep and goats).

So... resurrection of all mankind prior to Harvest? Or do you see Harvest as the same as (final) sheep and goat judgement?

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,551
4,684
59
Mississippi
✟248,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The rapture and the second coming are basically part of the same event.

The Messiah Jesus leaves heaven and meets the rapture church in the clouds in the air. They tabernacle there for 7 years during the tribulation. At the end of the tribulation The Messiah leaves His tabernacle place in the clouds and returns to fight for Israel.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
So the "small fraction of the total" that were "unlucky enough" to undergo the Tribulation, if any of them take the mark of the beast because they want to buy and sell, they will lose their salvation?
Ah, the inevitable Arminian question. But thanks.

Since the Bible is clear that those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire, IF any believer should do that, would contradict what Jesus so clearly taught.

First, in John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe possess (have) eternal life. This obviously means from the moment of saving faith in Christ the believer has eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

So, if you think any believer WILL take the mark, and end up in the lake of fire, Jesus was WRONG about what He said in 10:28. Since that is impossible, the reality is that NO believer will take the mark.

Do you think that is what God wants for them?
Nope. Of course not. So, what about believers who aren't living faithfully to the Lord? The kind that might be tempted to take the mark?

Since the Bible is clear about God's painful discipline toward His rebellious children (Heb 12), they will die before the opportunity arises to take the mark.

Problem solved.

btw, why do you say those "unlucky enough" to go through the Tribulation? What about ALL the centuries of believers, both OT and NT, who have suffered intensely for God?

Do you consider all of them just as "unlucky" as well?

Living for Christ has never been seen as a picnic.

1 Peter 4-
15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

This has always been true.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I guess that depends on what you think of the Word of God....
Huh? What are you exactly insinuating?

What I think of God's Word is that it is inerrant. Why in the world would you ask such a question? What did you think I think of it?

If you believe what Galatians 1: 11&12 states.... then most certainly all of which is written throughout the Epistles including Thessalonians and Corinthians. Whether He spoke in red or spoke by revelation ....both are words of Jesus Christ.
Here are the 2 verses:
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin.
12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

So, how do these verses relate to the resurrection and gathering of the living believers?

As for the Latin word Rapiemur or Rapturo =rapture it’s not and different that using the word trinity, which is not in the Bible …but we all know what it stands for.
I'm glad you brought this up. In the OP I forgot to quote the second use of "gathering".

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

This is a very clear verse on the Second Advent and "rapture"/gathering.

If one reads all the way to v.3 they will find that neither the Second Advent nor the gathering will occur UNTIL the a/c or beast #1 is revealed.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I accepted the imminent, secret, pre-trib rapture in my early days as a believer.
I gotcha beat. I believed there would be a pretrib rapture in the late 1950's. I believed that up until about 10 years ago when a friend challenged me on it. All it takes is an open minded study of the Word to realize that the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus takes resurrected or raptured believers to heaven.

This was in the early 70s when the book "Late Great Planet Earth" was in the rounds. Eventually, the Spirit led me in scripture to see that not only was there no such event but we have been warned against being deceived regarding such.

2 Thess 2
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Essentially, the first resurrection will happen at the last trump, on the last day, after the great tribulation.
Some suggest that this discussion is not important and the difference does not matter. Apparently, Paul thought it mattered and warned us about it with the above scripture. Also in Heb 6:1-3, we are told that if we do not excel in the elementary doctrines of Christ, we may not be allowed to go on to maturity. One of the elementary doctrines of Christ is the "resurrection of the dead."

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.

The implication of verse 3 is that if you do not have the foundation of these 6 teachings, God may not allow you to go on to more mature doctrine.

  1. repentance from dead works and of
  2. faith in God,
  3. instruction about baptisms,
  4. the laying on of hands,
  5. the resurrection of the dead, and <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
  6. eternal judgment.
So to knowingly allow yourself to be deceived about the first resurrection timing is pretty dangerous. It is disobedience and nigh unto rebellion. Not being judgmental or anything... just taking the warning seriously.
Amen! Thanks for the post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveM
Upvote 0

Saucy

King of CF
Supporter
Jul 5, 2005
46,663
19,814
Michigan
✟831,860.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Now I admit I'm not sure when the rapture will happen, but I do believe it will. Not only do we have the verses talking about two people in a field and one is taken, but there's also Revelation 14 that seems to be missed a lot.

"Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped." Revelation 14:14-16.

While the word "rapture" never appears in the bible, there are just too many verses that describe something happening where people are taken off the earth. This is just the first of two reapings if you continue to read and it happens before Jesus returns.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Now I admit I'm not sure when the rapture will happen, but I do believe it will. Not only do we have the verses talking about two people in a field and one is taken, but there's also Revelation 14 that seems to be missed a lot.

"Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped." Revelation 14:14-16.

While the word "rapture" never appears in the bible, there are just too many verses that describe something happening where people are taken off the earth. This is just the first of two reapings if you continue to read and it happens before Jesus returns.
What I mean by "there is no rapture" I mean there is no verse that says that Jesus will take resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

It seems the prevailing idea among evangelicals is that Jesus comes in the clouds with all the saints already in heaven, gives them resurrection bodies, and then raptures up all the ones who are "alive and remain" and changes them in an instant (receiving their glorified bodies) and taking the whole group up to heaven.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent with all the saints that are already in heaven, they will receive glorified bodies just before those who are alive and remain, who will be "caught up together with them". But, since this is the Second Advent, Jesus doesn't take them up to heaven, but continues down to earth, ends the Tribulation, and sets up His Millennial Reign.

So, those believers who will be "alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: DaveM
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,703.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The view by the majority of evangelicals today is that there will be a rapture, per 1 Thess 4 and those living on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 and then be taken up to heaven. All this will occur before the Great Tribulation.

One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".

Matt 24-
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

v.29 identifies the timing of this gathering to e "immediately after the distress", which is a reference to the Great Tribulation.

v.31 mentions a trumpet call, and angels will "gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other". This is essentially what 1 Cor 15:52 says.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The red words refer to ALL the saints already in heaven, who will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words refers to all the believers alive on earth when He comes.

It is a common view among pre-tribulationists that the resurrection will be in "stages", or "waves" or a "series" of events, all of which is needed to accomodate the different verses that deal with resurrection.

However, the Bible is clear that there will be only ONE event, called the resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means one for each.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

So, iow, all believers will participate in that singular event called "the resurrection".

One more passage that shows when this event will take place and what happens after believers are resurrected.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refer to Tribulation martyrs, and how they died and why.

The blue words refer to their resurrection when they receive their glorified bodies, and shows what they do after receiving their resurrection bodies; they will reign with Christ for the Millennial reign of Christ. So this will include ALL believers, since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

The green words clearly describe this resurrection as the "FIRST" resurrection.

Since there is only one resurrection for saved people, it occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus Christ returns to earth to reign on earth for 1,000 years.

So, there is no trip to heaven after the dead and living saints receive their glorified bodies.

As the Old Testament first fruits symbolized and consecrated the entire harvest that was to follow, Christ's resurrection was the foretaste of the resurrection of all believers yet to come. His resurrection is our assurance that one day all believers will be raised from the dead and will receive new, resurrected bodies.

Few are in heaven .... the masses don't get raised until He returns and then they are taken to heaven .... not before.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Indeed we are mortal as stated ... nothing immortal about us. Immortality was forfeited at the fall of Adam and Eve. Through sin death entered the world.

The masses rest in the grave and when He returns those are taken with Him to heaven for the 1,000 years.

Everyone has the opportunity to receive the gift of salvation now ... no reason for Him to rule on earth for 1,000 years. The door of salvation is open until He returns and resurrects the saints (saved) .... after that the door to salvation is closed.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,583
7,777
63
Martinez
✟894,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The view by the majority of evangelicals today is that there will be a rapture, per 1 Thess 4 and those living on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52 and then be taken up to heaven. All this will occur before the Great Tribulation.

One small problem. There are no verses showing Jesus taking resurrection/raptured believers to heaven. In fact, the very word "rapture" isn't found in Scripture. The biblical word for living believers receiving their glorified bodies is "gathered".

Matt 24-
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

v.29 identifies the timing of this gathering to e "immediately after the distress", which is a reference to the Great Tribulation.

v.31 mentions a trumpet call, and angels will "gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other". This is essentially what 1 Cor 15:52 says.

1 Cor 15-
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

The red words refer to ALL the saints already in heaven, who will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent. The blue words refers to all the believers alive on earth when He comes.

It is a common view among pre-tribulationists that the resurrection will be in "stages", or "waves" or a "series" of events, all of which is needed to accomodate the different verses that deal with resurrection.

However, the Bible is clear that there will be only ONE event, called the resurrection.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means one for each.

Both Jesus and Paul spoke of the resurrection of the saved in the singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse speaks of the resurrection of "the righteous". The red words is Christ's resurrection and called "the firstfruits" because He was the first human to receive a glorified body.

The blue words tell us when the singular resurrection will occur, which is the Second Advent.

The green words refers to ALL believers from Adam on.

So, iow, all believers will participate in that singular event called "the resurrection".

One more passage that shows when this event will take place and what happens after believers are resurrected.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refer to Tribulation martyrs, and how they died and why.

The blue words refer to their resurrection when they receive their glorified bodies, and shows what they do after receiving their resurrection bodies; they will reign with Christ for the Millennial reign of Christ. So this will include ALL believers, since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

The green words clearly describe this resurrection as the "FIRST" resurrection.

Since there is only one resurrection for saved people, it occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus Christ returns to earth to reign on earth for 1,000 years.

So, there is no trip to heaven after the dead and living saints receive their glorified bodies.
This is just one view of four. Not everyone adheres to Dispensational Futurism. You may consider looking into the other three views. Blessings
 
Upvote 0

Saucy

King of CF
Supporter
Jul 5, 2005
46,663
19,814
Michigan
✟831,860.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
What I mean by "there is no rapture" I mean there is no verse that says that Jesus will take resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

It seems the prevailing idea among evangelicals is that Jesus comes in the clouds with all the saints already in heaven, gives them resurrection bodies, and then raptures up all the ones who are "alive and remain" and changes them in an instant (receiving their glorified bodies) and taking the whole group up to heaven.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent with all the saints that are already in heaven, they will receive glorified bodies just before those who are alive and remain, who will be "caught up together with them". But, since this is the Second Advent, Jesus doesn't take them up to heaven, but continues down to earth, ends the Tribulation, and sets up His Millennial Reign.

So, those believers who will be "alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven.
Yeah it's certainly a mystery. I used to be pre-trib, but I've looked at so many different ideas, including those who believe Revelation has already happened and Nero was the antichrist, that I'm not sure anymore lol. I will continue studying it and keeping myself open to learning. We're told to keep looking up, so that's what we should do :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveM
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,703.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What I mean by "there is no rapture" I mean there is no verse that says that Jesus will take resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

It seems the prevailing idea among evangelicals is that Jesus comes in the clouds with all the saints already in heaven, gives them resurrection bodies, and then raptures up all the ones who are "alive and remain" and changes them in an instant (receiving their glorified bodies) and taking the whole group up to heaven.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent with all the saints that are already in heaven, they will receive glorified bodies just before those who are alive and remain, who will be "caught up together with them". But, since this is the Second Advent, Jesus doesn't take them up to heaven, but continues down to earth, ends the Tribulation, and sets up His Millennial Reign.

So, those believers who will be "alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven.

What I mean by "there is no rapture" I mean there is no verse that says that Jesus will take resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Sure there is ....


John 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 14

In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”…


John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus is in heaven ... He returns and takes us where He is and that is in heaven.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.