There is no Rapture

Harpadzo’ means caught away in 1Thess4:16-18 and rapturo’ in the latin vulgate translation. Many people on the fence now will see the truth of revelation of John and recommit and they will have to die to get salvation. In the revelation it says that many will file into heaven during the trib. New converts too I expect.

keras said:

There is really no argument about a 'rapture to heaven'.

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I agree - not much of an argument against these texts

BobRyan said:

Jesus clearly taught that His Father is in Heaven

Matthew 5:16 glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
Matthew 6 "Our Father who dwells IN HEAVEN"
Matthew 18:14 "your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish."
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John 14:1-3 1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Matt 5
3 “for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”…: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Heb 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.[/

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Dale said:

The problem is that if pastors keep predicting a rapture of believers and it never happens, the likely result will be a falling away from God's church.

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If the rapture does not happen and instead Christ shows up on Earth to "fix things" they will have no problem at all since - Christ is here in that scenario - explaining everything. Your scenario has no downside. There has already been 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints (as we also see in Dan 7 and Rev 12 and actual history) and you don't see Christians running out the doors.

By contrast the Matt 24 fake second coming that is predicted as happening before the real rapture event will be pretty easy to fake if rapture of all the saints both living and dead -- to heaven - does not have to be part of the fake event. A much more likely "downside" to getting this one wrong according to Matt 24.

double posted so deleted text not sure how to delete whole post

Emun said:

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

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Au contraire. There was no rapture until John Nelson Darby came up with it in the 19th century

RandyPNW said:

Brother, I go to a church with Pretribulation Rapture teaching. So I don't consider it anything more than my opinion in a church that disagrees with me. We're both futurists, but I am referencing Scripture where Paul says that the coming of the Lord for his Church cannot happen until the Man of Sin is revealed. Then, when he is revealed, Jesus will come to destroy him. That *is* Scripture! I don't care how democratic you think I need to be--I'm going to state what I see the word of God as saying!

But have at it. Tell your side. I've been hearing it since the mid-70s and earlier. There isn't a single Pretrib argument that I haven't answered. You have to follow the Lord the way He leads you. This is the way He leads me, and I don't intend to be hostile or disagreeable--just faithful to God and to my conscience.

Saints who convert during the Reign of Antichrist don't have time to mature and be courageous saints, as the book of Revelation depicts them. The 144,000 Jews are not depicted as an army of evangelists reaping a harvest across the world. On the contrary, the world is closing down evangelism because it is increasingly becoming more AntiChristian.

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Hi the concept of the imminence of the rapture is a key component and the view you hold would have a clear come back date of 42 months from the abomination of desolation until the coming of the LORD and you would have to watch the scorpion like things string people for 5 months and all the other horrible plagues come upon the earth and then look up for your redemption would be drawing near. We see that Jesus gave the warning that the church followed in 70 AD when they saw the Jerusalem being surrounded to flee as the desolation was coming. The Jews flocked to the temple and the Christians got out of there.
Now the Bible teaches to occupy until the LORD comes and the great persecution would certainly kill off almost all of the Christians who did not take the mark of the beast and especially if they were occupying and not fleeing to some wilderness. Dan 7 talks about the pompous one who is persecuting and prevailing over the saints for a time times and half a time. Now the the gates of hell do not prevail over the church and the 70 weeks of Daniels are clearly set for the city of Jerusalem noted as the Holy City and the Jews noted at Daniels people. The dispensational view has the church gone and the focus back on Israel. Luke one ties this in as well with the prophecy of Zachariah noting that Jesus would be the horn of salvation for the house of Jacob and would keep the covenants, oaths, promises and prophecies to deliver them from their enemies and to enter a time where from then on they would worship and serve the LORD in righteousness and holiness without fear and dwell in safety all their days. This is the focus of the tribulation to accomplish this transition. The same with Isaiah 61 where Jesus read half the 1st sentence up until the declaring of the acceptable year of the LORD and he stopped and declared that fulfilled. The rest of the sentence and chapter are all the things accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God. Again this is a clear before and after picture for Zion and support the idea that the 70th week of Daniel is focused on the outcome for Daniels people and Zion. The many who convert post rapture will be the ones who's souls are under the altar crying out for justice and the that number will be completed. The rapture has the saints meeting the dead in Christ in the air called to Jesus and the distinction of this is Jesus is coming for the bride and not coming in vengeance. The contrast to him coming to tread the winepress of the wrath of God is when He comes from Bozrah and all His garments are stained in blood and in that day His feet will touch the Mount of Olives which will split in two and then He will be king over all the earth. The promise to keep the church of Philedelphia from the hour that is coming to test all those who dwell on the earth is linked to the prayer Jesus told us to pray that we would be counted worthy to escape these things that are coming upon the whole earth and to be standing before the son of man. The church is not mentioned in Rev after chapter 3 and I do agree with you the 144K are not evangelists as many say but the gospel is said to be proclaimed at that time by Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
I think the church is gone and those beheaded are tribulation saints and not the church. I am aware of what signs would prove this view wrong and am committed to stand in Christ no matter what. I appreciate your invitation to share my views and hope we enjoy the same application to be laboring for the kingdom.

Brian Mcnamee said:

double posted so deleted text not sure how to delete whole post

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If you find out how to delete a post, please let the rest of us know.

BobRyan said:

ONE of the main points of the "Rapture" doctrine is that Jesus' promise to take the saints to heaven - in John 14:1-3, is fulfilled literally as we see in Matt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation" and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 where the saints are taken up in the air just as Matt 24 says.

That means that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are taken to heaven according to the Bible.

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Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
--Matthew 5:5 NIV


If God’s purpose is to remove all Christians from the earth and take them to heaven, when do the meek inherit the earth?

Unqualified said:

Harpadzo’ means caught away in 1Thess4:16-18 and rapturo’ in the latin vulgate translation. Many people on the fence now will see the truth of revelation of John and recommit and they will have to die to get salvation. In the revelation it says that many will file into heaven during the trib. New converts too I expect.

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One of the thing that Dispensationalists/rapturists are confused about is the scope and purpose of Thessalonians. Some scholars believe that I Thessalonians was the first book of the New Testament to be written. Others believe the Epistle of James was first. It was very early.

What we know is that Paul had visited Thessalonica at some point. Then someone reported to him that the Thessalonians were clueless about the afterlife. They had no idea what Christians should think about afterlife. Paul probably wanted to go back to Thessalonica and speak to them but he had other plans, other commitments. He wrote a letter instead, to explain the significance of the Christian afterlife.



The problem is that Paul wrote I Thessalonians as Basics of the Afterlife or Afterlife 101. Rapturists insist on reading it as Paul’s Advanced Treatise on the End Times. Paul never intended it to be any such thing.

Christ and Paul I believe make it very clear that there is no secret rapture before the tribulation. They also both give out strict warnings on the subject about deception. Because that's what will ensnare the entire world at that time. Satan and his will arrive and deceive most of the world. Christ states if they say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not.


And Paul states "our gathering back to him" meaning this is when we meet Christ will "not happen until..." and then proceeds to lay it out.

The Thessalonians thought that the day of Christ was at hand (any moment) but Paul sets them straight in his second letter. There's no secret rapture and a second coming. There's only one more coming -which will be the second.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Rapture believers have to separate the two to prove their doctrine.

Well I wo

Dale said:

The problem is that if pastors keep predicting a rapture of believers and it never happens, the likely result will be a falling away from God's church.

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Well I wouldn’t say that.Rather I think the teaching of either possibility would be safer.Such as what to do if/when the tribulation comes and how to persevere regardless of a rapture if there is one.

Why would Christians go through the trib. We are not appointed to wrath’. Romans 5:9. 1Thessalonians 1:10. 1Thessalonians 5:9

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter into the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24, 1 Peter 4:12, +

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 2 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

Dale said:

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
--Matthew 5:5 NIV


If God’s purpose is to remove all Christians from the earth and take them to heaven, when do the meek inherit the earth?

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The Body of Christ will be raptured into Heaven.

The meek in that verse refers to the nation of Israel who will inherit the Earth, as promised to their father Abraham.

Emun said:

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

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How many Christians lived between Enoch and Isaiah?

How many saints lived in that same period of time?

Timtofly said:

How many Christians lived between Enoch and Isaiah?

How many saints lived in that same period of time?

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How many people were ever converted while zero Christians were alive on planet Earth. It would be a time without the body of Christ on Earth in the pre-trib model (Which I don't agree with - just pointing to the issue with that idea).

BobRyan said:

ONE of the main points of the "Rapture" doctrine is that Jesus' promise to take the saints to heaven - in John 14:1-3, is fulfilled literally as we see in Matt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation" and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 where the saints are taken up in the air just as Matt 24 says.

That means that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are taken to heaven according to the Bible.

Click to expand...

Dale said:

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
--Matthew 5:5 NIV


If God’s purpose is to remove all Christians from the earth and take them to heaven, when do the meek inherit the earth?

Click to expand...

It means that after the 1000 years where the saints are in heaven - they come to Earth along with the New Jerusalem.

Guess who is asleep ?

1Thessalonains 5:

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi the concept of the imminence of the rapture is a key component and the view you hold would have a clear come back date of 42 months from the abomination of desolation until the coming of the LORD and you would have to watch the scorpion like things string people for 5 months and all the other horrible plagues come upon the earth and then look up for your redemption would be drawing near.

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Yes, I know all of those arguments, and they're fair arguments--I've asked those questions myself. You aren't likely to be impressed, but they are hypothetical arguments because the stronger arguments for Postrib is 2 Thes 2 and Dan 7. The order of eschatological events is clear to me. Antichrist appears, and then the Son of Man comes to defeat him and to set up his Kingdom. Nothing at all about a "Secret Rapture of the Church."

So how do I answer these relevant questions?
1) Imminency is not as it is defined by Pretribs. It is not the expectation that Christ could come *today.* Rather, it is a relative nearness, a proximity of the Kingdom to earth such that things like Salvation takes place as well as limited judgments. But the end is not yet. We are to be alert not in the expectation that he could come "at any time." Rather, we are always to be vigilant against the regular deceptions that seek to sidetrack us.

2) We are indeed given a specific number of days for the Reign of Antichrist--1260 days. At 1st glance, this would seem to contradict the notion that we are not to be given the day of his Return. If we know he is coming on the 1260th day, then we can know the day of his Return.

However, this isn't the case, nor is it the reality. We are not told Christ will return on the 1260th day of Antichrist's reign. In fact, we are not told when the 1st day of the 1260 days actually begins. Only Christians will become aware that this is likely the Antichrist, because there will be no trumpet and voice from heaven declaring, "This is the Antichrist and the 1260 day countdown has begun."

At the end of the 1260 days of Antichrist's Reign we are told the 2 Witnesses are killed, and lay in the street for 3.5 days. This now brings us to 1264 days before Christ can return.

Furthermore, it is only after Antichrist's Reign that the world appears to be called to Armageddon. The implication is that Antichrist's world reign has dissipated, and now the world is in rebellion against him. Eastern kings are challenging his "superpower" status. Kings across the world are drawn to battle with him at Armageddon (I'm speculating).

How long does it take to mobilize armies from across the world to Armageddon in Israel? Quite a while--perhaps months? We aren't told. Again, this is a possible scenario where the 1260th day isn't clearly discoverable, nor does it have relevance to determining the day of Christ's Return.

3) The "scorpions" prophecy and others that are very symbolic are deliberately obscure so that we can understand the moral concerns without positively identifying the associated events. The idea is to warn Christians about events so that we are prepared for them in every generation and in particular, in the generation in which this event will happen.

Brian Mcnamee said:

Now the Bible teaches to occupy until the LORD comes and the great persecution would certainly kill off almost all of the Christians who did not take the mark of the beast and especially if they were occupying and not fleeing to some wilderness.

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1) The Bible indicates Antichrist's Empire is limited to 10 nations and 7 leaders in Europe. It is a world power that for 3.5 years is beyond challenging. But in the end, the world is divided and turns to apocalyptic war. This means only Christians within Europe will likely be subject to death imposed upon them if they don't take the mark.

2) The Bible indicates Christians will be alive when the Lord returns. Your position and my position both agree on this. I certainly do not believe all Christians will be eliminated from the earth by either Antichrist or the wars.

I'll have to answer the rest in another post. This one's getting too long.

BobRyan said:

How many people were ever converted while zero Christians were alive on planet Earth. It would be a time without the body of Christ on Earth in the pre-trib model (Which I don't agree with - just pointing to the issue with that idea).

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The body of Christ will be present, but not as Christ. Jesus will be here as King. They will follow a King, not a Messiah.

The Church has followed Christ for 1992 years, because He was not a King. This time of trouble is for Jacob, not the church.

The problem is that the church's eschatology is all wrong. Jesus as King will be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. There will not be any Christ followers. There will only be King followers. This time of great trouble will be to gather the firstfruits of the Millennium. It is not to gather the church into Paradise.

At the 6th Seal, the church will not be on earth, however Jesus as King and all the angels will be on earth for the final harvest. After the 6th Seal there will be no more converts into the church. The church is not on earth during the Millennium. No one will convert in the Millennium. There will be no need to convert in the Millennium. None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will exist in the Millennium to convert from. The sheep and wheat are not converts. The sheep and wheat are chosen directly by Jesus and literally translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They are not the church. They are King followers who reign with Jesus as King over their offspring for 1,000 years. This is the camp of the saints. The wheat is a remnant of every nation, to populate the earth. The only ones who enter the Millennium by choice, will be those who choose to chop off their heads to avoid the mark. They will be judged and resurrected after Armageddon. These souls are the only reason for the 42 month AoD period ending with Armageddon. They are the "converts" of the 2 witnesses. But not converts to the church. They are beheaded to remain in the Lamb's book of life.

There is a rapture, because that is how those alive (in Christ) at the 6th Seal are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as Jesus is descending as King to the Mount of Olives.