There is no Rapture

Jan001 · Mar 12, 2024

Guojing said:
Your objective in participating in Christian discussion is to only discuss with people who interpret scripture your way?

We both have said what our understanding is on this topic. What more can we discuss without repeating ourselves?

Jan001 · Mar 12, 2024

keras said:
I certainly don't!
Those experiences are purely a Satanic deception. Please explain how anyone can be deemed to qualify to go to heaven, before any Judgment?

Each person is judged immediately after his death. His spirit then goes to his own proper place: heaven, hell, or else prison, until he has repaid the last penny. Before Jesus opened the gates of heaven after His death, everyone's spirit had to go to Hades first to await His death on the cross. The rich man and Lazarus went to their own places immediately after their deaths, as did Judas. Acts 1:25

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Matthew 5:25-27 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow.

Who is this accuser? Possibly Satan. Possibly our own evil deeds. Or both.

Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Matthew 12:36-37 I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

keras said:
Moses didn't. David didn't and the martyrs do not live there, as just their spiritual souls are kept under the Altar.

Are their spiritual souls, or spirits, alive with God in eternity? I say, "Yes." Their bodies will not re-join with their spirits until the last day. On that day, they will receive immortal bodies.

Actually, the spirits of the martyrs are not literally under the altar. This is symbolic. These persons were cruelly martyred when they chose to stay faithful to God. These spirits are enjoying heaven with God and they are awaiting the resurrection of their bodies on the last day.

keras said:
Ok, as trying to discuss any issue with someone who simply ignores plain scriptures like Revelation 20:5, is a wasted effort.

I share my understanding. I don't choose to argue the same points over and over.
I will be happy to explain my understanding of Revelation 20:5. When I can, I will post a stand-alone post on this thread explaining my understanding of the meaning and context of this Scripture.

keras · Mar 12, 2024

Jan001 said:
Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,

'Immediate' is not there, you add that.
In the case of Adam; he will have waited in 'sleep' for his Judgment; nearly 7000 years.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is a homily. Not to be taken as a reality!

Jan001 said:
I will be happy to explain my understanding of Revelation 20:5.

Revelation 20:4-6 do not need explaining. They say what they mean and they mean what they say.

Verse 5 proves that Judgment is not immediate at death.

Jan001 · Mar 12, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 20:4-6 do not need explaining. They say what they mean and they mean what they say.

Verse 5 proves that Judgment is not immediate at death.

Actually, every person interprets the Scriptures with his own viewpoint. It seems to me that it is only your own interpretation that is allowable. I do see plainly that there is no reason for me to continue this conversation.

Guojing · Mar 12, 2024

Jan001 said:
We both have said what our understanding is on this topic. What more can we discuss without repeating ourselves?

You can always try to understand why the other party interpret in a certain way, that is different from yours.

Jan001 · Mar 12, 2024

Guojing said:
You can always try to understand why the other party interpret in a certain way, that is different from yours.

We both interpret the Scriptures with our own personal viewpoints. Everyone does this. I don't claim to be an authority on the Scriptures. I simply share my own personal understanding of them. When I learn from others on this forum and agree with their reasoning or information, I change my viewpoint.

keras · Mar 13, 2024

Jan001 said:
When I learn from others on this forum and agree with their reasoning or information, I change my viewpoint.

Problem is; you don't seem to agree with plainly stated scripture.
Your belief of Judgment at death, is not what many scriptures tell us. Job 14:12 awaits the final Judgment, Lazarus does too; John 11:24 and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God = AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Jan001 · Mar 13, 2024

keras said:
Problem is; you don't seem to agree with plainly stated scripture.
Your belief of Judgment at death, is not what many scriptures tell us. Job 14:12 awaits the final Judgment, Lazarus does too; John 11:24 and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God = AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

What you do not seem to realize is that what you or I believe to be the correct interpretation of a Scripture passage may not be at all what the original author meant to portray.

It is fruitless to have a discussion with a person who has the mindset that his or her own interpretations of the Scriptures are "gospel truth," and so any other person's different interpretation is in error.

You claim that your interpretation or understanding is "plainly stated scripture." Who gave you the authority to make this claim?

I personally have no authority. I have opinions, but I can be wrong, and sometimes I am wrong. I do not have a problem with changing my mind when I learn more and then understand more clearly what the author actually meant to portray.

It is my understanding that there are two judgments.

As soon as a person dies, he is judged, and then his spirit goes to his own place to await the resurrection of his body at the second coming of Jesus. A person's spirit, or soul, cannot die, and it does not sleep. It is immortal. It does not get tired.

After Jesus returns for His second coming, there will be a general judgment of all people so that we can all know how God's salvation plan for humanity was accepted or rejected by each individual person.

The white throne judgment and the judgment of the sheep and the goats are the same judgment, depicted in two ways. The sheep and the goats already knew if they were saved or not immediately after they died.

Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

The rich man's spirit was already in hell, awaiting the resurrection of his body, and then both would be in hell for eternity.

keras · Mar 13, 2024

Jan001 said:
It is my understanding that there are two judgments.

Hebrews 9:27 says we die and then comes Judgment. Singular.
We are clearly told when that Judgment will happen. Revelation 20:11-15

Jan001 said:
After Jesus returns for His second coming, there will be a general judgment of all people

The 'sheep and goat' separation that Jesus will do after He Returns, Matthew 25:31-45, is the same as the Sixth and Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:12-18, it will be Armageddon; where all the ungodly peoples will be killed.
Only the faithful righteous peoples will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Rev 16:15

Matthew 25:46 refers to the Great White Throne Judgment, after the Millennium.

Jan001 · Mar 13, 2024

What was the first resurrection?

Revelation 20:1-9 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

We know that Jesus Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection.

What also happened when Jesus died and rose from the dead?

Jesus released the righteous souls, or spirits, who were in Hades, and they entered into eternal life in heaven and are now reigning with him there until his second coming. "A thousand years" is symbolic for the long time period between Jesus' first coming and his second coming at the end of time. It does not mean a literal one thousand years.

Psalm 50:10 does not mean that God only owns the cattle on just one thousand hills. God owns all the cattle on all the hills. "A thousand hills" is symbolic for a great number of hills.

I think one of the powerful effects of Jesus' death on the cross is that Jesus is restraining Satan's power for "a thousand years," but perhaps today Jesus is no longer restraining Satan's power. It seems to me that demonic power is ever-increasing these days.

Continued: 7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. 9 They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

What is the beloved city?

It is the New Jerusalem, the Church of the Living God. I think this is a spiritual city of believers, which includes the church members in heaven who are the spirits of the righteous made perfect. Believers on earth are also spiritual members of this New Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:18-24 You have not come to something that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. 20 (For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”) 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Gog and Magog are symbolic for all the enemies of God and his people.

At the end of time, fire will destroy all of God's enemies. John 16:33, Hebrews 12:29

Jan001 · Mar 13, 2024

keras said:
Hebrews 9:27 says we die and then comes Judgment. Singular.
We are clearly told when that Judgment will happen. Revelation 20:11-15

The 'sheep and goat' separation that Jesus will do after He Returns, Matthew 25:31-45, is the same as the Sixth and Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:12-18, it will be Armageddon; where all the ungodly peoples will be killed.
Only the faithful righteous peoples will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Rev 16:15

Matthew 25:46 refers to the Great White Throne Judgment, after the Millennium.

We are living in the millennium presently. Jesus will not come to earth to physically reign in Jerusalem for a literal one thousand years.

Acts 7:49 “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?

What would be the purpose for Jesus to reign physically on the earth?

Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

Luke 17:20-21 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom doesn't belong to this world. If it did, my followers would have fought to keep me from being handed over to our leaders. No, my kingdom doesn't belong to this world."

keras · Mar 13, 2024

Jan001 said:
What would be the purpose for Jesus to reign physically on the earth?

These:
Isaiah 2:2-4, Zechariah 14:16-21, and Psalms 110:2 The Lord extends the power of your sceptre, From Zion, reign over Your enemies.

Jesus came first as a suffering servant, He will Return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, to reign over the world for the next thousand years.
Revelation 20 clearly says it, why discount scripture?

Jan001 · Mar 13, 2024

keras said:
These:
Isaiah 2:2-4, Zechariah 14:16-21, and Psalms 110:2 The Lord extends the power of your sceptre, From Zion, reign over Your enemies.

Jesus came first as a suffering servant, He will Return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, to reign over the world for the next thousand years.

keras said:

Revelation 20 clearly says it, why discount scripture?

Click to expand...

The Scriptures you quote prophesy the metaphorical re-building of the temple, the second one, and the importance of Jerusalem in the ancient world, including during Jesus' lifetime. This first covenant religious system was destroyed in AD 70. It will not be reinstated. Jesus' death on the cross ratified our new covenant, and it will never end.

You misunderstand Revelation 20. “The thousand years” began when Jesus died on the cross.

We do have Scriptures that state that Jesus is literally and spiritually reigning in heaven and that he will continue to reign in heaven and on earth from his throne in heaven until he hands over his kingdom to his Father after his second coming.

Luke 22:69 But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Ephesians 1:17-21 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation as you come to know him, 18 so that, with the eyes of your heart enlightened, you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance among the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power for us who believe, according to the working of his great power. 20 God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

At the time of Jesus' second coming, the dead bodies are raised and reunited with their spirits, and so no human will ever be born or die again. Therefore, Jesus destroys death at his second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:21-28 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

What is the Scripture that you believe makes the claim that Jesus returns physically, not spiritually, to earth to rule?

keras · Mar 13, 2024

Jan001 said:
What is the Scripture that you believe makes the claim that Jesus returns physically, not spiritually, to earth to rule?

Revelation 1:7 ....every eye will see Him..... and many other verses describing the physical Return.

At the Return Jesus comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
This proves the Return is after His Day of wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6

Jan001 · Mar 18, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 1:7 ....every eye will see Him..... and many other verses describing the physical Return.

At the Return Jesus comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
This proves the Return is after His Day of wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6

According to your theory, what happens immediately after the "a thousand years" are over?

Jan001 · Mar 18, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 1:7 ....every eye will see Him..... and many other verses describing the physical Return.

At the Return Jesus comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
This proves the Return is after His Day of wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6

According to your theory, is there one physical return of Jesus to earth or are there two?

keras · Mar 18, 2024

Jan001 said:
According to your theory, what happens immediately after the "a thousand years" are over?

According to the Bible Prophets; After the Judgment of everyone who has ever lived, Eternity comes and God will live with mankind on the new earth.

Jan001 said:
According to your theory, is there one physical return of Jesus to earth or are there two?

According to the Bible; Jesus Returns only once.
On His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal; He sends punishment onto His enemies. Psalms 11:4-6

Jan001 · Mar 18, 2024

keras said:
According to the Bible Prophets; After the Judgment of everyone who has ever lived, Eternity comes and God will live with mankind on the new earth.

According to your understanding of the writings of the prophets, when do we meet Jesus in the air?

keras said:
According to the Bible; Jesus Returns only once.
On His terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal; He sends punishment onto His enemies. Psalms 11:4-6

According to your understanding of the Bible, when will Jesus return to earth to rule in Jerusalem for a thousand years?

Jan001 · Mar 18, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 1:7 ....every eye will see Him..... and many other verses describing the physical Return.

At the Return Jesus comes in blood splashed garments. As Almighty God, Revelation 16:14
This proves the Return is after His Day of wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6

Why are Jesus' garments already blood-splashed when he returns?

keras · Mar 19, 2024

Jan001 said:
According to your understanding of the writings of the prophets, when do we meet Jesus in the air?

According to your understanding of the Bible, when will Jesus return to earth to rule in Jerusalem for a thousand years?

Revelation 19:11-21 sets it all out very well and Matthew 24:30-31 is indisputable about when His faithful peoples will be gathered.

Jan001 said:
Why are Jesus' garments already blood-splashed when he returns?

The bloodshed and deaths of millions at the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, as described in Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, 2 Peter 3:7, +, is Prophesied to us metaphorically as Jesus being splashed by their blood. This blood cannot be real, as Jesus is Spirit and cannot be affected by physical things.
Jesus will not actually be on earth or be seen from the earth on that Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4

What this Prophecy does, is confirm that the Sixth Seal is before Jesus Returns, refuting any ideas that His wrath will happen when He Returns.

There is no Rapture

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