There is no Rapture

[Marilyn C]

 

[BobRyan]

It has been well established in the past that we do not share the same beliefs

I have discussions with a great many people here that do not share my exact same POV on at least one topic.

. So why should i believe you are using these verses correct

Because you should be able to read and to engage in at least some level of exegesis.

For example in this post of yours you ignore every detail in every text that I mentioned - as if that is a solution to something.

it really is not worth the time (for me) to post any rebuttal of these verses.

I think we can all see that this is how you treat them at this point.

Thanks for removing all doubt though. It is helpful to have that clarity

 

[BobRyan]

To hold onto beliefs that do not have solid Bible support, like looking to the Return of Jesus as the next event, or a ‘rapture’ out of this world, is a serious error and may result in some disadvantage for you.

Interesting but so far you identify exactly zero disadvantage to not agreeing with your POV. Your proposed "solution" presents "zero" negatives for anyone not agreeing with you - in the event that your speculation on this point is correct.

The actual end times events will surprise and shock those who didn’t bother to gain understanding, even though it will dramatically affect everyone.

2 Thess 2 says they will be doomed because the strong delusion that they embrace rather than accepting Christ's truth.

The unfortunate part about not knowing our future, is that we miss out on the anticipation of the wonderful and amazing promises

No such text in all of scripture. Nothing in any teaching in the Gospels or the NT says that "everything roses at the end of the world and those who don't anticipate how happy they are going to be - are simply missing out on that anticipation regarding all the joy and happiness that is coming their way".

There is not one such text in all of scripture regarding the downside of getting the Rev 13, Matt 24 "all the world deceived" thing "wrong".

Now, there is a great proliferation of end times misinformation, books, movies, internet, etc.

true.

But, the biggest problems for church goers, is the lack of preaching about prophecy

True - and the inclination to embrace stories rather than good Bible teaching

People quote Matthew 24:36 ...no one knows the day or hour... omitting the full quote, that is; verse 35-36 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away. Yet about THAT Day and hour no one knows... Then Jesus goes on to talk about His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ

No text says "His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti ChristHis Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ"

Not even one.

How is it that having not one to say what you speculate - does not cause a "pause for reflection" in your mind on that point? Seems like it should be just a tad bit "interesting" as a red flag.

The verse that explains Matthew 24:35-36 belongs at the time of the end of the Millennium

No it does not

Jesus is talking about His coming where 1 Peter 1:13 says that all the Christians church is to "set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ".

A point that is nowhere near the end of the 1000 years in Rev 20. Rather it is the Rev 19 event, which is the Matt 24 event of Christs appearing, which is the 1 Thess 4:13-18 event as well. No wonder this is the entire focus of the NT church.

Why has God given us so many end time prophecies if we can only know afterwards?

True - He has given us what we need NOW. So in Matt 24 Jesus reminds us "I have told you in ADVANCE" and this is how we will not be deceived. He did not leave us in the dark to only know what we must know - AFTER it is too late.

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come on everyone, the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus.

This Bible passage is not about the Day of the Return

Luke 22 is about the arrest of Christ - you have the wrong chapter.

read Luke 17: 22-32 -- which is about the rapture - just as is Matt 24.

We need to find at least one serious Bible student on the subject of eschatology and have a discussion with him/her.

 

[keras]

Interesting but so far you identify exactly zero disadvantage to not agreeing with your POV.

Right, anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved. Jehn 3:16 But in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, it says that people whose 'works' fails the test, will retain their eternal lives, but only by 'escaping thru the fire'- Of the Lord's Judgment. 1 Peter 4:12

2 Thess 2 says they will be doomed because the strong delusion that they embrace rather than accepting Christ's truth.

That refers to the ungodly peoples. For us Christians, those who are deluded will not lose their Salvation, but those who teach false theories will be more severely Judged.

are simply missing out on that anticipation regarding all the joy and happiness that is coming their way".

The Lord has Promised great things for His faithful people. Living in all of the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had. We will go there in great joy, Jeremiah 33:10-11, Isaiah 60:9, and live in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Hosea 2:14-23

No text says "His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti ChristHis Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ"

The world rule of the Anti-Christ 'beast', is stated several times in Revelation as: 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days. It commences when the AC sits in the Temple and ends when Jesus Returns.

No it does not

Matthew 24:35-36 refers directly to the new heaven and earth. THAT Day is unknowable, as is the forthcoming day of the Lord's fiery wrath.

- He has given us what we need NOW. So in Matt 24 Jesus reminds us "I have told you in ADVANCE" and this is how we will not be deceived. He did not leave us in the dark to only know what we must know - AFTER it is too late.

Many are deceived by false teachings. There would be hardly any Christian who studies the Prophetic Word, who agrees with another.
Many Prophesies say how people will be shocked and surprised when the Lord takes action.

Luke 22 is about the arrest of Christ - you have the wrong chapter.

Sorry, I did mean Luke 21:34-36.
I quoted it to show how rapture believers mistakenly use it to prove their false theory.

We need to find at least one serious Bible student on the subject of eschatology and have a discussion with him/her.

I have found that to be a hopeless task. All seem to disagree. Or most often simply refuse to discuss Prophecy.

My MO, is to carefully read ALL of the Prophesies, to make an index of the subjects and collate them into a coherent and logical sequence of events. As Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:4,,,we should not be in the dark about forthcoming events and what the Lord has planned for our future.
I believe, from what the Prophets have Written, that the last days will commence with a dramatic worldwide disaster, described many times as fire sent by the Lord. This disaster will allow the formation of a One World Govt, but we Christians will not be part of it. Our task will be to display His glory among the nations, Ezekiel 39:27, His Light to the nations; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

 

[sparow]

Yes, we should be ready, with growing with further godliness. It should not be with avoiding responsibilities and things we should do for the expectation of being caught up sooner.

I would not use the word godliness, I would use righteousness or lawfulness .

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Interesting but so far you identify exactly zero disadvantage to not agreeing with your POV.

Right, anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved.

And yet there were "consequences" for the error that Eve slipped into.
And there were "consequences" for those who rejected the inspired warning about future events as preached by Noah
And there were "consequences" for those who rejected John's prediction about the Messiah

But your view is that God has an end time message that has "no consequences" for those that get that wrong at the very moment that everything comes to a crashing halt as predicted in scripture??

those who are deluded will not lose their Salvation,

You might be interested in this thread -

Looking for at least one other serious Bible student - regarding end times.

It's harder to find than you might think. A lot of people view forums like this one on endtimes as not really for serious Bible students since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is...

www.christianforums.com

But if not interested in that idea please don't post there - as I am not trying to debate all ideas known to man on that thread -- just trying to get a serious review of one.

I have found that to be a hopeless task. All seem to disagree. Or most often simply refuse to discuss Prophecy.

I know the feeling. Am glad to see that at least I am not the only one to notice it.

 

[sparow]

That would imply that the LORD made a mistake which is hysterical

Acts 9:15

Not so, the Lord is not involved; as I read Luke (or possibly an editor) records Paul's testimony. The word of the Lord is infallible, but not so the word of Paul or what is written in ink.

 

[keras]

And yet there were "consequences" for the error that Eve slipped into.
And there were "consequences" for those who rejected the inspired warning about future events as preached by Noah
And there were "consequences" for those who rejected John's prediction about the Messiah

But your view is that God has an end time message that has "no consequences" for those that get that wrong at the very moment that everything comes to a crashing halt as predicted in scripture??

I pointed out the consequences for the Christian believer; loss of rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Their Salvation remains intact.
For all the ungodly: death, either at the Sixth Seal, at the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, that culminate in Armageddon. Only faithful, righteous people will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

You might be interested in this thread -

I looked at your thread.
If you think someone who has spent the last 12 years intensively studying the Prophetic Word and has written over 800 articles on that subject; qualifies, then I am your man.
However, over that time. I have posted thousands of posts on the Prophecy section of many Christian Forums and the net result is ZILCH. No one agrees with what I show the Prophets have said will happen. The timeline I present, is rejected and ignored. Dougggg opposes most everything I say, at least he doesn't abuse or threaten me, as many others do.
Take a look at my website; logostelos.info All my writings are there, free, Then comment and discuss issues you disagree with.

 

[BobRyan]

I pointed out the consequences for the Christian believer; loss of rewards.

1. How does the "fewer toys in heaven" , "fewer reward in heaven" consequence (I guess because the person failed to figure something out about future events) -- when it comes to God's warnings about the end of the world - compare to the other fails in your POV?

2. Where is a single text in all of scripture saying that those who fail to figure out the end time sequence get less stuff in heaven???

3. Eve took Satan's view and lost her saved/accepted stated with God ... became lost (as did Adam)
People at the flood -- lost their lives along with their families at the flood if they failed to figure out that Noah was right.
Israel lost their position as God's evangelists, lost their lives, lost their home, lost their nation for centuries under Hadrian ... etc for failing to figure out that John the baptizer was correct.

The horrific "fail" warnings in Rev 13 and Rev 14 are farrrr worse than any warning in scripture that was stated regarding those other events -- and you say we should downsize it all to "really it is nothing more than fewer nice things in heaven for you"?? what text is that in Rev 13 or Rev 14?

 

[BobRyan]

If you think someone who has spent the last 12 years intensively studying the Prophetic Word and has written over 800 articles on that subject; qualifies, then I am your man.

Good to know. I am looking for a serious response to the first two posts there -

For example take a look at the things stated there about Matt 24 and post something there about why the text can't possibly mean what it appears to say (if that is your view of it). I would like to see a serious review of it and I don't care that the person does not agree with what is posted - I just want to see attention to the very details being highlighted there - and what your view is.

However, over that time. I have posted thousands of posts on the Prophecy section of many Christian Forums and the net result is ZILCH. No one agrees with what I show the Prophets have said will happen.

Ok. Well I am not asking that all sorts of alternate eschatology be posted there because there is tons of room for that on this area of the forum. I am just asking for a review of the specific interpretation in the first two posts to see where either you agree or you think that is not what the text actually says and why..

I suppose that one possible response might be "given the texts that are highlighted here - what is proposed as the future scenario makes perfect sense. But I look at some other texts over here or there to get to a different conclusion"

 

[keras]

1. How does the "fewer toys in heaven" , "fewer reward in heaven" consequence (I guess because the person failed to figure something out about future events) -- when it comes to God's warnings about the end of the world - compare to the other fails in your POV?

2. Where is a single text in all of scripture saying that those who fail to figure out the end time sequence get less stuff in heaven???

3. Eve took Satan's view and lost her saved/accepted stated with God ... became lost (as did Adam)
People at the flood -- lost their lives along with their families at the flood if they failed to figure out that Noah was right.
Israel lost their position as God's evangelists, lost their lives, lost their home, lost their nation for centuries under Hadrian ... etc for failing to figure out that John the baptizer was correct.

The horrific "fail" warnings in Rev 13 and Rev 14 are farrrr worse than any warning in scripture that was stated regarding those other events -- and you say we should downsize it all to "really it is nothing more than fewer nice things in heaven for you"?? what text is that in Rev 13 or Rev 14?

You don't address 1 Cor 3:13-15.
That scripture says that Christian believers will still be saved; as Jesus promises in John 3:16, but if their 'works' are useless; then only by passing thru fire. The ones whose 'works' are acceptable, will receive the rewards that Jesus will bring with Him. Matthew 16:27
'works', is defined by Jesus in Matthew 25:35-45

Good to know. I am looking for a serious response to the first two posts there

Firstly; show that you can accept anything I teach about the Prophetic Word:

The next Prophesied event will be the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
A One World Gove will be established, soon to be led by a powerful dictator.

I reject the 'rapture to heaven'. No human ever goes to heaven.
We will gather and live in all of the holy Land.
Our task as Christians is to be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

I do not see anybody becoming immortal, or having 'glorified bodies', before the GWT Judgment and Eternity.
We are not in the Millennium, Jesus will Return after all of Revelation up to 19:10 is over.
I do not believe we are in the new Covenant. That awaits our gathering into the holy Land.

we can lose our Salvation.
We all must die and then comes the Judgment. That is: "we sleep' in the grave until the end of the Millennium.
No one, incl me; can know all of God's Plans for the future, Only after it happens will we be able to see and understand the Prophesies.

All of these points can be proved with scripture. Or the lack of scripture, for the rapture to heaven.

 

[FredVB]

Believers will be caught up to be with Christ, that is biblical, none of us really knows when that will be, that is biblical, even if some among us believe wholeheartedly that we do know that. It is also biblical that we should not ever refrain from responsibilities and what is according to God's will for us.

 

[keras]

Believers will be caught up to be with Christ

Yes.
When Jesus Returns, His angels will gather all those people who have kept strong in their faith during all the testing times. Matthew 24:30-31

They will go to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the next thousand years. Revelation 20:1-5

 

[FredVB]

Yes.
When Jesus Returns, His angels will gather all those people who have kept strong in their faith during all the testing times. Matthew 24:30-31

They will go to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the next thousand years. Revelation 20:1-5

If we are to know that is true, there must be scripture passages showing that after believers are caught up to be with Christ, they are then all taken to Jerusalem to stay there. And what about everyone already there living in Jerusalem?

 

[keras]

If we are to know that is true, there must be scripture passages showing that after believers are caught up to be with Christ, they are then all taken to Jerusalem to stay there. And what about everyone already there living in Jerusalem?

Zechariah 14:4 plainly states that the Lord Jesus will Return to Jerusalem. To the same place He departed from; Acts 1:11
His faithful people will be with Him and they become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10
Going to heaven is not an option, not even the 2 Witnesses actually go to heaven; Jesus calls them up to Him at His Return, along with all the Great Trib martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The only people left in Jerusalem after Jesus has Returned, will be the faithful righteous peoples. All the rest will be gone, as described in Zechariah 14:3 & 12-15, Revelation 19:17-21

 

[FredVB]

Zechariah 14:4 plainly states that the Lord Jesus will Return to Jerusalem. To the same place He departed from; Acts 1:11
His faithful people will be with Him and they become His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10
Going to heaven is not an option, not even the 2 Witnesses actually go to heaven; Jesus calls them up to Him at His Return, along with all the Great Trib martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The only people left in Jerusalem after Jesus has Returned, will be the faithful righteous peoples. All the rest will be gone, as described in Zechariah 14:3 & 12-15, Revelation 19:17-21

I have noticed a long time ago, many years past, the passages show Jesus returning to where he ascended from, the Zechariah passage clearly shows that Christ is Yahweh. But who is coming with him? There is only interpretation for understanding anything about that. Revelation 5 is with passages about the twenty-four elders on thrones. I don't think your interpretation will explain who they are that I would agree with. They are in heaven in that opening scene, anyway. When all Israel will be saved, meaning they trust Christ their Messiah as their Lord, as Paul had prophesied, it will be all the remnant there, who are then saved, Christ will return when they call on him, in victory over the enemies, those that are the followers of the one who made promises for restoring a civilization from what is left then, the one known in the Bible as the great beast, who come to make battle there, even when they will fight militarily against God. Of course they cannot possibly win.

 

[keras]

the passages show Jesus returning to where he ascended from, the Zechariah passage clearly shows that Christ is Yahweh. But who is coming with him?

Only the angel army of heaven will accompany Jesus at His Return. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27
After His glorious Return, He will send those angels out to gather those faithful people who have proved their faith during all the Prophesied end time events. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

No 'interpretation' required, just read and understand the plain scriptures.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Only the angel army of heaven will accompany Jesus at His Return. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27
After His glorious Return, He will send those angels out to gather those faithful people who have proved their faith during all the Prophesied end time events. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

No 'interpretation' required, just read and understand the plain scriptures.

I wonder if the Army will also include the Elect the Lord gathers, which could include all believers. The fight will be over the moment the Lord opens his mouth and commands the defeat, so it seems the Angels and the redeemed will be there to observe and begin the Millenium reign more so than be additional firepower to actually fight.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus is coming with both the angels of heaven and the raptured resurrected saints. Jude 1:14, Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 19:14 indicate the saints. While Matthew 16: 27, Matthew 24:31 and Revelation 20:1 indicate the angels.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come,and all the saints with thee.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

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In the middle of the 7 years, Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth - by Michael and his angels, in Revelation 12:7-9.

So when Jesus returns, there will be all of those wicked angels on the earth who will have to be rounded up and removed. Which although it does not say anywhere in the text of the bible - that I know of - about that particular aspect, I think one of the actions of the angels coming with Jesus will be to deal with all of Satan's angels and them who will have been released from the bottomless pit in the 5th trumpet in Revelation 9.

Does that sound reasonable to you ?

 

[keras]

Jesus is coming with both the angels of heaven and the raptured resurrected saints. Jude 1:14, Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 19:14 indicate the saints. While Matthew 16: 27, Matthew 24:31 and Revelation 20:1 indicate the angels.

This is pure supposition and faulty guesswork.
The Greek word used to denote angels OR saints, is: hagios.
Strongs G40 - ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare G53, G2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, ...

That 'hagios' is correctly translated as angels

Jude 1:14, Zechariah 14:5

They both say : with His holy ones, in the REBible Meaning angels.

in each of the scriptures above, is proved by the fact of only one group accompanying Jesus, not 2 and the total lack of any scripture that says the Church will be in heaven before Jesus Returns. Or afterward, as well.
Such a pretentious and self promoting idea as the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is comprehensively refuted by Jesus Himself. Johm 3:13. 7:34. 8:21-23, 17:15 and Revelation 5:10

Lord opens his mouth and commands the defeat, so it seems the Angels and the redeemed will be there to observe and begin the Millenium reign more so than be additional firepower to actually fight.

The angel army that comes with Jesus, does not assist with killing the army at Armageddon. They do go out to gather the faithful Christians to Jesus; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31

In the middle of the 7 years, Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth - by Michael and his angels, in Revelation 12:7-9.

So when Jesus returns, there will be all of those wicked angels on the earth who will have to be rounded up and removed. Which although it does not say anywhere in the text of the bible - that I know of - about that particular aspect, I think one of the actions of the angels coming with Jesus will be to deal with all of Satan's angels and them who will have been released from the bottomless pit in the 5th trumpet in Revelation 9.

Does that sound reasonable to you ?

Yes, This sounds quite probable.

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