There is NO rapture!!!

[LovedofHim]

Then what is Jesus doing here ?

Hebrews 9:28

"So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation, without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

He comes here for one reason, and one only, which is salvation.

In Revelation 19:11, Jesus comes for three reasons, to judge, make war, and to rule.

THAT is impressive!

What an excellent, excellent point, especially given these two passages where the church is in heaven, praising God for SALVATION before the antichrist even shows up:


Rev 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.



Rev 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Manasseh_]

Just as William Blake utilized vivid imagery to communicate the overwhelming feelings one experiences when in the awesome, menacing presence of a tiger, so also the apostle Paul employed imagery that would have been familiar to both Jews and Gentiles to communicate his message.
Paul was drawing on the imagery of Exodus 19.16-20, where t[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]he cry of command, the angel’s call, the shofar, the people’s approach, and the clouds, all strongly recall Israel’s theophanic experience with YHWH at Mount Sinai. And Paul is also very likely deliberately echoing Psalm 47.5:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]God has ascended (to his throne on Mt. Zion) with a shout, [/FONT]
YHWH, with the sound of a trumpet.
And as I've repeatedly noted as well, he uses language that would have caused his audience to picture in their minds all the pomp and ceremony that accompanied an official visit from the emperor.


Come now, Frank. Naturally there are instances where numeric figures are meant to be understood as being literal; as in, those exact numbers. But I'm sure you'll also agree that there are obviously other instances where numeric values are not used that way, and thus are not intended to be understood as exact. If I told you that I currently have a bank balance of $1,245,963.76 (I wish), I think it's pretty safe to assume that I intend that figure to be understood quite literally. But if, in another context, I say, "I must have told my son a million times not to do that," then I certainly wouldn't fault someone for not taking that figure literally, but instead understanding it as the simple use of hyperbole.
So, as I say, regarding the "thousand year" reign of Christ, because the number '1,000' was considered to generally represent a lot of something in the 1st-century, chances are better than not that it's simply meant to be understood as representing 'a long time'.

Your suggestion falls short in error for one simple
reason.

These men that wrote down the examples
given here were obviously inspired by God to write
them down and in these particular cases as in all cases like these they are
prophetic utterances from
God declaring the end from the beginning.

Prophecy although having some descriptive language of it's time period still is a foretelling of actual future events.
If these events do not happen the way they are explicitly stated then they would become false prophecies.
Added to this it would accuse Paul and John the apostles of being false prophets.

Paul made an explicit statement, no mysterious or
highly descriptive language was used.

The Lord will return at some point gather his elect (saints) and they will at this point in time be with him.
John likewise when foretelling there would be a 1000 year reign before the rest of the dead would be resurrected again did the same.

Neither said anything that would lead someone to
think that any of the direct statements foretelling an
actual future event needed to be "spiritualzied" in some way nor did they have any deep mysterious
meaning needing to be "taken apart" to understand them.

Apparently you see fit to give yourself license to
take a direct prophecy and
turn it into something else altogether, cancelling out the future foretold event instead.

Methods like these aren't anything new, gnostics thousands of years ago did the same
thing.

 

[chalkstc]

dc,

IMO, Amill is the same as one saying ABIBLE.

Of course Scripture uses figurative, metamorphical, symbolic and allegoric language and parables to transmit heavenly truths to it's hearers. But all these modes are used to confuse those without the Spirit but give wisdom to those with the Spirit.

And every instance points to a literal truth, happening or still to be fulfilled prophecy.

Example: you have the "strongman" completely bound when Jesus spoke, yet he is still active in the rest of the NT and in the Rev future, and certainly in our lifes in the present. Did "put on the whole armor of God" cease in thew first century?

What kind of exegesis is that? You have the kingdom completed as if there is not an earthly one to come. Prove it without literally tearing pages from your Bible.

Do you even believe in a SC or are you a preterist also?

Bro Frankie

 

[dcyates]

I believe that if you check carefully, you will find that Cosby's argument (which is not an argument at all, but an admission of the failure of his own argument) is conclusive. The "money quote" from his report is:

"A computer search of the literature written during the several centuries surrounding Paul's era using the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG) produced 91 pages of citations of passages that employ forms of apanthsis.17 Yet only a minority of the uses of these terms describes formal receptions. For example, but not once to describe the meeting of a dignitary. Similarly, Josephus employs them 92 times, but only ten times in descriptions of formal receptions. In the LXX the noun a0pa/nthsij is used frequently in 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, 1-2 Chronicles and sporadically in other books, particularly 1-3 Maccabees. Often it designates the hostile meeting of armies, although it also describes virtually any kind of meeting.18

"footnote 18.

"Examples include Abigail going to meet David to prevent the killing of Nabal and his family (1 Sam 25:32, 34), David's messengers going to meet the disgraced ambassadors who had half their beards and clothes cut off (2 Sam 10:5), Shimei coming to curse David as he left Jerusalem before Absalom (1 Kgs 2:8), the elderly David rising to meet his wife Bathsheba (1 Kgs 2:19), Elisha's servant Gehazi going to meet the Shunammite woman with the sick child (2 Kgs 4:26), Azariah the prophet going to meet king Asa with a word from the Lord (2 Chr 15:2), Tobit going out to meet his daughter-in-law (Tob 11:6), Jonathan going to battle against Antiochus (1 Macc 12:41), and disorderly women flocking into a city (3 Macc 1:19)."

Gundry did not answer this portion of Cosby's paper. Instead, he only answered the additional portion in which Cosby also pointed out that when apantesis was used of a formal reception, it included certain formal elements which are missing in Paul's usage of this Greek word. Although this argument occupied the bulk of Cosby's paper, it was not the most important part. The important part was the results of the computer study.

This is, in my mind, conclusive. Cosby proved, to his chagrin, that apantesis sometimes meant a formal reception to meet someone and escort him back, but that is not what it usually meant.

He also pointed out that, among the Early Chruch Fathers, the only one of all of them that gave this explanation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 was Crysostem. This is also very significant.

Your point is well-taken, James, and thank you for the pains you've taken in making it. Nevertheless, although the term may not always have been used to designate a formal meeting with a visiting dignitary, but only sometimes used that way, given that the other two instances in which it's used in the NT are in fact examples of it being used this way, on top of just who the referent is in 1 Thessalonians 4 and the event for which it's being used to describe, all due respect, but I think it's still pretty save to understand it this way. (In truth, I find it somewhat puzzling that any Christian would seek NOT to interpret it this way.)

 

[Codger]

When you are on the wrong road all of the word studies in the world will not put you back on the right road.

Unfortunately, Jesus' eschatology was all wrong so he is not a credible source of information. We are fortunate to have all the Futurists today to correct his obvious errors.

His eschatology was very simple: The fall of Jerusalem followed immediately by the second coming and the end of the world. Where is the "secret Coming." Well I'm sure he realizes his mistakes by now.

 

[chalkstc]

Hi Codger,

His eschatology was very simple: The fall of Jerusalem followed immediately by the second coming and the end of the world. Where is the "secret Coming." Well I'm sure he realizes his mistakes by now.

That is a full preterist statement above. I thought that heresy was not allowed on this forum? If it is allowed, then you better check the road thing.

Frankie
PS not all futurists believe the harpazo is secret but happens at the SC immediately after the trib of those days.

 

[RefCath]

Depends what you mean by rapture, I do think that the dispenational views are wrong on this issue.

 

[Codger]

Hi Codger,

That is a full preterist statement above. I thought that heresy was not allowed on this forum? If it is allowed, then you better check the road thing.

How can that be a preterist view. All I did was summarize the words of Jesus. Quoting Jesus is heresy? Oh right he was wrong all the time.

Frankie
PS not all futurists believe the harpazo is secret but happens at the SC immediately after the trib of those days.

Right he said he was coming immediately after the tribulation of the fall of Jerusalem. Isn't that what I said?

 

[son_flower]

Hi Codger,



That is a full preterist statement above. I thought that heresy was not allowed on this forum? If it is allowed, then you better check the road thing.

Frankie
PS not all futurists believe the harpazo is secret but happens at the SC immediately after the trib of those days.

Did not you both just say the same exact thing??

the trib immediately followed by SC and no secret rapture??

 

[chalkstc]

Codger,

Preterist means "past" or done deal. Did you or did you not say that the SC was in 70 AD? if I misunderstood your post, forgive me.

Please clarify................

His eschatology was very simple: The fall of Jerusalem followed immediately by the second coming and the end of the world. Where is the "secret Coming." Well I'm sure he realizes his mistakes by now.

Frankie

 

[POSTIOS]

Since codger used the fall of Jerusalem for reference, I assumed he meant 70AD.
That is a preterist view.

 

[Manasseh_]

How can that be a preterist view. All I did was summarize the words of Jesus. Quoting Jesus is heresy? Oh right he was wrong all the time.

A. You're denying belief in preterism whether full or partial and your earlier statement was and is not part of the preterist teachings.
or
B. You do hold to the preterist view and this statement is simply one of sarcasm.
?

I choose B................am I right , am I right.......what'd I win ?

Right he said he was coming immediately after the tribulation of the fall of Jerusalem. Isn't that what I said?

No he didn't..................He said
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

the apostles generation did not see all these things fulfilled:

no abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place in temple because Titus and his armies completely destroyed the temple, leaving no holy place within the temple for an abomination of desolation to be placed.

They did not see the gospel of this kingdom published throughout the world Mat 24:14

They did not see a "falling away" 2Thess 2 /Matt 24:12 a great apostasy within the body of Christ because it was still in it's infancy during their generation, the apostles themselves along with the prophets were the very foundation upon building this body, Christ being the chief cornerstone. Eph 2:20

They did not see mankind come to the point of having the technology and ability to completely destroy the human race from the planet, of which during "this generation" if God did not intervene mankind would annihilate the human race from the planet Mat 24:22

They did not see this prophecy fulfilled..........Psa 110:1..........this is both a promise and prophecy from the Father to the Son, Christ still has enemies here on earth "antichrist" and it will culminate in the beast, false prophet /man of sin and babylon the harlot of which he will destroy at his return when his enemies are brought low as his "footstool"

this example only one of literally dozens of prophecies still yet to be fulfilled.

And most importantly they did not see their savior return in power and glory to establish his kingdom on earth, because when that kingdom is established then God's will is done here on earth as it is done in heaven. God's will is not being done here on earth, the wicked still do wickedly.

only "this generation" will see these things fulfilled, the very end time generation shortly before Christ's return in power and glory and false doctrines such as preterism will also be a thing of the past.

 

[son_flower]

A. You're denying belief in preterism whether full or partial and your earlier statement was and is not part of the preterist teachings.
or
B. You do hold to the preterist view and this statement is simply one of sarcasm.
?

I choose B................am I right , am I right.......what'd I win ?



No he didn't..................He said
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

the apostles generation did not see all these things fulfilled:

no abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place in temple because Titus and his armies completely destroyed the temple, leaving no holy place within the temple for an abomination of desolation to be placed.

They did not see the gospel of this kingdom published throughout the world Mat 24:14

They did not see a "falling away" 2Thess 2 /Matt 24:12 a great apostasy within the body of Christ because it was still in it's infancy during their generation, the apostles themselves along with the prophets were the very foundation upon building this body, Christ being the chief cornerstone. Eph 2:20

They did not see mankind come to the point of having the technology and ability to completely destroy the human race from the planet, of which during "this generation" if God did not intervene mankind would annihilate the human race from the planet Mat 24:22

They did not see this prophecy fulfilled..........Psa 110:1..........this is both a promise and prophecy from the Father to the Son, Christ still has enemies here on earth "antichrist" and it will culminate in the beast, false prophet /man of sin and babylon the harlot of which he will destroy at his return when his enemies are brought low as his "footstool"

this example only one of literally dozens of prophecies still yet to be fulfilled.

And most importantly they did not see their savior return in power and glory to establish his kingdom on earth, because when that kingdom is established then God's will is done here on earth as it is done in heaven. God's will is not being done here on earth, the wicked still do wickedly.

only "this generation" will see these things fulfilled, the very end time generation shortly before Christ's return in power and glory and false doctrines such as preterism will also be a thing of the past.

This generation is Christs generation. This age of believers. Like in 'its a wicked generation' that seeks a sign.

No single lifespan generation could 'see' all of them anyway even if it means our present generation.
And it does not say we 'see' them be fulfilled only that all of them will be fulfilled before the generation in which He comes passes.

What anyone actually 'sees' in Matt. is the AOD. When therefore you shall 'see' the AOD spoken of by Daniel, run for the hills.
Now you have another problem because Jesus told the disciples that.

 

[chalkstc]

SF,

What anyone actually 'sees' in Matt. is the AOD. When therefore you shall 'see' the AOD spoken of by Daniel, run for the hills.
Now you have another problem because Jesus told the disciples that.

When the generation sees "ALL" thes things come to pass". Did the disciples see the completion of the preaching of the Gospel to all nations happen back then? NOT!

And note: Jesus brings us all the way to the end before He comes in vs 14. THEN vs 15 continues with the AOD which also comes at the same end.

Order, order, order
Frankie

 

[Manasseh_]

No single lifespan generation could 'see' all of them anyway even if it means our present generation.
And it does not say we 'see' them be fulfilled only that all of them will be fulfilled before the generation in which He comes passes.

The first part of your statement contradicts the second part, first you say no generation could ever see all of them anyway" then you proceed to finish by saying the generation just before his return does see these things fulfilled...............?

and I don't remember specifically stating that WE ,our generation is the one to see these things fulfilled, I'm 385 (in dog years) although I can see certain events transpire which are a leading up to this end time and it's prophecies, I may not see anything but the rest of my life then death followed by my resurrection from death.......so I have no idea why you said "And it does not say we 'see' them be fulfilled "

What anyone actually 'sees' in Matt. is the AOD. When therefore you shall 'see' the AOD spoken of by Daniel, run for the hills.
Now you have another problem because Jesus told the disciples that.

Actually it would be you that would have a problem in attempting to prove the apostles seen the abomination of desolation in their generation, since there was no temple left for the abomination of desolation to even be placed..............

Luke's account states that armies surround Jerusalem and the abomination is not far off from that event, other prophecies show these are armies of a number of nations that came against Jerusalem (Zech 14)

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

There were no nations or their armies that came against Jerusalem in the generation of the apostles, there was only one power then, The Roman Empire and ITS army that came against Jerusalem and when they entered, once again, they did not set up an abomination of desolation in the temple because they completely destroyed it, (not one stone left upon another )

Mark's account states that this abomination of desolation stands were it SHOULDN'T be................
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

and again the apostles did not witness such an event since the temple had been destroyed.
History also shows that there were another number of uprisings by the jews after 70AD against the Roman Empire, none having any abomination of desolation being placed, ie, there were the Kito Wars 115-117AD and a third uprising, the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132-136Ad..........and a number of smaller revolts also, all having no fulfillment of an abomination of desolation being placed.

The one point we must focus on is the fact that this Olivet Prophecy given by Christ was a foretelling of the final events that would lead up to his return, the final few years before this event, again the generation living during that particular time in history, ie, the generation living at the time of the Great Tribulation.

and last..........Christ did not zero in on the apostles and imply that they would be the ones to see this abomination of desolation personally, he said............

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


any believer , past , present or even future who reads of this prophecy given to Daniel, his apostles included............God will give understanding to his servants of what this abomination of desolation is and when it is to be, even at that moment Christ was giving them insight as to when the final abomination of desolation would occur.

 

[son_flower]

The first part of your statement contradicts the second part, first you say no generation could ever see all of them anyway" then you proceed to finish by saying the generation just before his return does see these things fulfilled...............?

No contradiction. You changed my words.
I did not say in the second part that one single lifespan generation would 'see' them.
I said "only that all of them will be fulfilled".

Will be fulfilled does not mean physically 'seeing' them be fulfilled.

No single lifespan will physically see every sign but by the last day of the last days they will have in fact all been fulfilled.

And Jesus could very well have meant this generation of grace.

and I don't remember specifically stating that WE ,our generation is the one to see these things fulfilled, I'm 385 (in dog years) although I can see certain events transpire which are a leading up to this end time and it's prophecies, I may not see anything but the rest of my life then death followed by my resurrection from death.......so I have no idea why you said "And it does not say we 'see' them be fulfilled

I agree you did not say 'we'. you said:

... only "this generation" will see these things fulfilled, the very end time generation shortly before Christ's return ...

I am hoping those very end people is 'we' but as you say, it may not be.

I was trying to simplify the "very end time generation" you spoke of, into a simple 'we'.

And as i just stated no single generation of people will 'see' all of them happen they take the entire generation of this age.

Darn manasseh 385?? you are almost as old as dirt. hehe

Actually it would be you that would have a problem in attempting to prove the apostles seen the abomination of desolation in their generation, since there was no temple left for the abomination of desolation to even be placed..............

The abomination starts before the desolation. The A causes the D silly.
Remember in Daniel there is 3.5 years to the end of D.
This is why it says when you see the A OF D run! so you don't get stuck
in the D.

It is not up to me to prove Jesus was not speaking to the disciples sitting right in front of Him who are showing Him the temple right in front of them.
I trust He was telling them the truth because He cannot lie.

It is up to you to prove He was speaking to someone else.

Most scholars agree the gospels of the Olivet Discourse were written after 70AD. This is why Luke is so accurate with his description.

The antichrist Jews who killed their own Messiah are those who caused their own destruction with war just as stated in Daniel 9:27
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The book of Acts shows their rebellion and increasing violence and the temple has in fact been destroyed and the city laid desolate.

You have the burden of proof of a NEW holy temple which cannot exist because the antichrist Jews follow the old law. Not only that, try and move those Muslims. Not going to happen.
We are the new temple.

Luke's account states that armies surround Jerusalem and the abomination is not far off from that event

Lukes account says the desolation draws nigh, not the abomination.
The abomination of the war will cause the desolation.
Basically when the Jews cause a war....... then get out!

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

There were no nations or their armies that came against Jerusalem in the generation of the apostles, there was only one power then, The Roman Empire and ITS army that came against Jerusalem

Luke does not say "nations". Titus has 4 legions.
Plus dont forget Nero and King Agrippas legions that were sent to help Titus.
They were all sick of the Jewish revolt .

The one point we must focus on is the fact that this Olivet Prophecy given by Christ was a foretelling of the final events that would lead up to his return, the final few years before this event, again the generation living during that particular time in history, ie, the generation living at the time of the Great Tribulation.

The one point we must focus on is the fact that this Olivet Prophecy given by Christ was a foretelling of the destruction of Jerusalem and the old Jewish temple stones being totally flattened along with tribulation of the Church by false prophets and antichrists.
Jesus does not say any of this:
final events
final few years before this event
the generation living during that time

Jesus does say:
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Was this in the 'final few years' of whenever??

no:

Act16:37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast [us] into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.

and last..........Christ did not zero in on the apostles and imply that they would be the ones to see this abomination of desolation personally, he said............

Who else is sitting there with them as He tells them this?

When ye therefore shall see
But when ye shall see



Looks like a simple conversation with His disciples like He always did.

 

[chalkstc]

SF,

Do you understand the "transcendent you"?

John 3:16​

​

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

KJV


Whosoever is viable all the way up to the SC. Thus anyone can be saved who calls upon the name of the Lord.

Matt 24:15 ​

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand​

KJV


Likewise we have a "whoso"...................that means anyone who reads before the SC can understand (except you of course )

Mark 13:14 ​

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:​

​

KJV

Mark says............."let himthat readeth". Again, it goes all the way up to the SC of generations of readers.

Let it go Sis.

Do you realize that because of this timing error, that you have to also misinterpret Paul's mos sin as a collective, rather than a distinct personage? That is what happens with false doctrine,....it multiplies it's lies imo.

Bro Frankie

 

[son_flower]

SF,



When the generation sees "ALL" thes things come to pass". Did the disciples see the completion of the preaching of the Gospel to all nations happen back then? NOT!

And note: Jesus brings us all the way to the end before He comes in vs 14. THEN vs 15 continues with the AOD which also comes at the same end.

Order, order, order
Frankie

It does not say this generation SEES all these things come to pass.

You can argue with Paul about all the nations:

rom.1:5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom1:8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Verse 15 sais when ye THEREFORE...
therefore means : consequently or so then.
therefore is used to refer to a previous topic

Luke sais: And when ye shall see....

And when you read what i actually said about SEEING things you will not need to write any further.
lol i am funny don't ya think?

 

[son_flower]

SF,

Do you understand the "transcendent you"?

John 3:16​

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

KJV


Whosoever is viable all the way up to the SC. Thus anyone can be saved who calls upon the name of the Lord.

Matt 24:15 ​

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand​

KJV


Likewise we have a "whoso"...................that means anyone who reads before the SC can understand (except you of course )

Mark 13:14 ​

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:​

KJV

Mark says............."let himthat readeth". Again, it goes all the way up to the SC of generations of readers.

Let it go Sis.

Do you realize that because of this timing error, that you have to also misinterpret Paul's mos sin as a collective, rather than a distinct personage? That is what happens with false doctrine,....it multiplies it's lies imo.

Bro Frankie

LOL Frankie. Whosoever, whoso, and him is not YE and YOU.

english 101

i suppose you think the 'son of perdition' was given to Jesus by God to keep??
mos IS collective. there are is a man of sin and a man of faith
its not false, its written.

you are the one who has to gaze into your dome of the rock for an AOD

 

[chalkstc]

Post,

Since codger used the fall of Jerusalem for reference, I assumed he meant 70AD.
That is a preterist view.

Not exactly................preter simply means past. A Full preterist believes everything was fulfilled, including the SC of Christ in 70 AD....................

Frankie