There is no hell.

[Der Alte]

It comes as near answering your post as your post answered MichaelTheeArchAngel's post. By asking the question that you did, you left the impression, at least as far as I am concerned, that you were of the opinion that punishing a child could keep him out of sheol which meant 'something more than grave', where it would not keep him out of the grave.

Once again, will punishing a child prevent him/her from dying and being buried? The purpose of punishment is to correct wrong behavior. If a child is punished and they correct their behavior, or not, they will still die and be buried, but as the passage states it will save his/her soul from sheol.

I'm sure he did die, and most likely worms did cover his body at some point after he was buried. But there is usually at least one literality in any simile of the metaphorical nature.

Your assumption that "there is usually at least one literality [sic] in any simile of the metaphorical nature" is NOT proof that the events which scripture states occurred at the death of the king of Babylon, were metaphorical, etc. You have assumed, but not proved, that anything which does not fit your assumptions/pressupositions is figurative. None of this proves your argument.

IMHO the following passages would dismiss verses 9 &10 of Isaiah 14 as being literal.

Job 3: 11. Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the Ghost when I came out of the belly?
12. Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13. For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14. With kings and counsellers of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
15. Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16. Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

I don't see how this passage is relevant at all. It describes the state of the dead. Vss. 14-16, simply says everybody dies. No argument here. Vss. 17-19, The dead are no longer affected by the events of this world.

Job 24: 19. Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

After death life on earth continues and the dead are soon forgotten by the living. The wicked cannot continue their wickedness after death

Ecclesiastes 9:5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

This is a standard proof text for universalists and annihilationsits. It is ALWAYS quoted out-of-context, as you have done. This is clearly proved in vs. 6, which you did not quote.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

This passage is describing the relationship of the dead, with the living. Everything done under the sun. NOT the eternal condition of the dead. Note, vs. 5, "neither is there any more a reward." The righteous are most certainly rewarded after death. Their memory may be forgotten by the living but God remembers them. But there is no more a reward for them under the sun.

Israel is not said to be a proverb in 1 King 9:7. It is written that Israel would become a proverb (to other nations). Big difference.

Whether "is a proverb" or "will become a proverb." At some point Israel was or would be a proverb to other nations. The nation Israel did NOT become a myth or legend they continued to exist.

Neither is Israel said to be a proverb in Ezekial 18:2. The proverb there was : "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge".

Inadvertently cited the wrong verse.

Deu 28:37 And thou [Israel Deu 27:1] shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [Israel, vs. 2] to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

Jer 24:9 And I will deliver them [Judah, vs. 5] to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.​

After these prophecies were fulfilled Israel and Judah continued to exist, they did not turn into a myth, or legend, etc.

Psa 69:11 I [David, vs. 1] made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. ​

David continued to exist he did not become a myth or legend.

 

[Evergreen48]

Once again, will punishing a child prevent him/her from dying and being buried?
The purpose of punishment is to correct wrong behavior.
If a child is punished and they correct their behavior, they will still die and be buried, but as the passage states it will save his/her soul from the sheol.

You may beat, or punish a child into obeying you. But you will never beat a child, or anyone else for that matter, into obeying God. The individual's relationship with God is a private affair between God and the person with whom He is dealing. We may pray for someone, even our children, that they will have a good, strong, and obedient relationship with God, and I believe that sometimes God does answer those prayers. But He does so by speaking to the heart of the individual for whom you are praying, not to the heart of the one who is praying for that person. So then, we only have one other option available if we cannot take the proverb literally. It is a figure of speech which I believe speaks to the matter of: if we allow our children to grow up not disciplined in their reckless conduct, many times it is their reckless conduct as adults which leads to their demise.

Your assumption that "there is usually at least one literality [sic] in any simile of the metaphorical nature" is NOT proof that the events which occurred at the death of the king of Babylon, were metaphorical, etc. Thus you assume that anything which does not fit your assumptions/pressupositions is figurative. None of this proves your argument.

I assume nothing . You asked me to 'rely solely on O.T. scripture', which is exactly what I did to prove my argument.

I don't see how this passage is relevant at all. It describes the state of the dead. Vss. 14-16, simply says everybody dies. No argument here.

Vss. 17-19, The dead are no longer affected by the events of this world.

Yes it does describe the state of the dead, and it describes them as not being affected by anything at all. Both the wicked and the righteous are there. The prisoners and the prison keepers, the oppressed and the oppressor. The small and the great, the servant and the master. There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary be at rest.

Eccl. 9: 2. All things come alike to ALL: there is ONE event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto ALL: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jesus went there.

Isa. 53: 7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

After death life on earth continues and the dead are soon forgotten by the living.

Those who have lived and have made their 'mark' in the annals of history,whether they are notorious due to evil deeds, or righteous deeds, are never forgotten by the living. And certainly anyone who dies is remembered by those with whom they were associated for as long as those people live.

The wicked cannot continue their wickedness after death

The wicked are still conscious, retaining their thought processes even after they die, but cannot continue their wickedness? I hardly see how this could be true since wickedness comes from the heart of the person.

Matthew 15: 18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

This is a standard proof text for universalists and annihilationsits. It is ALWAYS quoted out-of-context, as you have done. This is clearly proved in vs. 6, which you did not quote.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This passage is describing the relationship of the dead, with the living. Everything done under the sun. NOT the eternal condition of the dead.

There are some passages in the scriptures which transcend context. That is, the meaning of the statement is the same, and is just as valid in one contextual setting as it would be were it used in another contextual setting. Vs. 5 is one of those statements. And as much as you seem to want to explain it away, it reports that 'the dead know nothing at all'.

Note, vs. 5, "neither is there any more a reward." The righteous are most certainly rewarded after death. Their memory may be forgotten by the living but God remembers them. But there is no more a reward for them under the sun.

Certainly God does not forget the righteous. That is our one great hope. But the reward of the righteous after they die is not the focal point in this discussion. We are talking about what happens to the wicked at their demise. And the scripture plainly teaches that they are forgotten and remembered no more. And since we have already seen that they are remembered by the living, who else would it be, other than God, who forgets them?

Psalms 1:1. " Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Whether "is a proverb" or "will become a proverb." At some point Israel was or would be a proverb to other nations. The nation Israel did NOT become a myth or legend they continued to exist.



Inadvertently cited the wrong verse.

Deu 28:37 And thou [Israel Deu 27:1] shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it [Israel, vs. 2] to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

Jer 24:9 And I will deliver them [Judah, vs. 5] to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

After these prophecies were fulfilled Israel and Judah continued to exist, they did not turn into a myth, or legend, etc.

Psa 69:11 I [David, vs. 1] made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

David continued to exist he did not become a myth or legend.

Of course they continued to exist. People, or nations themselves do not turn into myths or legends. But to the nations who had absorbed them, all the stories about the nation's former grandeur and glory were considered myths or legends. Therefore it was said that the nation itself became a proverb. This is called a 'manner of speech', or 'a manner of speaking'.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump.........

 

[CDROIx]

Of course there is hell,the bible says so,and the NLT bible IS correctly translated,it was proved to be

 

[Mikecpking]

Of course there is hell,the bible says so,and the NLT bible IS correctly translated,it was proved to be

How would you define 'hell'? If it is translated from the Hebrew word Sheol or the Greek word Hades, then one can only understand it as the common grave of all men.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Of course there is hell,the bible says so,and the NLT bible IS correctly translated,it was proved to be

The words "grave" and "pit" were given the INTERPRETATION hell. Hell is part of the pagan religion. Look it up.

 

[JudaicChristian]

You should take note that this is a story and not a parable. Wealth and poverty is not a condition for a reward or punishment. In other words: this is not the words of Yahshua, because he came speaking in parables.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*You should take note that this is a story and not a parable. Wealth and poverty is not a condition for a reward or punishment. In other words: this is not the words of Yahshua, because he came speaking in parables.....................

I believe it is both. What I am thinking of making a thread doing it do a verse by verse study on that "story/parable".
I spent about a week translating it from the greek texts then looking at where similar words words were used in the rest of the NT/NC, including the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
Would anyone be interested?

I do have a thread alread on it

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7306890
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

but I believe it would be best just to do it verse by verse as these 2 commentators did

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

....................Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell..........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The words "grave" and "pit" were given the INTERPRETATION hell. Hell is part of the pagan religion. Look it up.

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*snip*

The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something".[3] The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Norwegian and Swedish helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment"), and Gothic halja[3]. Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary[3] (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).

The English word hell has been theorized as being derived from Old Norse Hel.[3] Among other sources, the Poetic Edda, compiled from earlier traditional sources in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, provide information regarding the beliefs of the Norse pagans, including a being named Hel, who is described as ruling over an underworld location of the same name............................

Biblical words translated as "Hell"

Sheol In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times.[22] However, Sheol was translated as "the grave" 31 other times.[23] Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.[24]

Modern translations, however, do not translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death." See Intermediate state‎. Gehenna In the New Testament, both early (i.e. the KJV) and modern translations often translate Gehenna as "Hell.

"[25] Young's Literal Translation is one notable exception, simply using "Gehenna", which was in fact a geographic location just outside Jerusalem (the Valley of Hinnom). Tartarus Appearing only in II Peter 2:4 in the New Testament, both early and modern translations often translate Tartarus as "Hell."

Again, Young's Literal Translation is an exception, using "Tartarus". Hades Hades is the Greek word traditionally used for the Hebrew word Sheol in such works as the Septuagint, the Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, Christian writers of the New Testament followed this use.

While earlier translations (i.e. the KJV) most often translated Hades as "hell", modern translations use the transliteration "Hades" or render the word as "the grave" in most contexts. See Intermediate state‎.

Abaddon The Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning "destruction", is sometimes used as a synonym of Hell.[26]

Infernus The Latin word infernus means "being underneath" and is often translated as "Hell".

 

[JudaicChristian]

I believe it is both. What I am thinking of making a thread doing it do a verse by verse study on that "story/parable".
I spent about a week translating it from the greek texts then looking at where similar words words were used in the rest of the NT/NC, including the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
Would anyone be interested?

I do have a thread alread on it

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable - Christian Forums
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

but I believe it would be best just to do it verse by verse as these 2 commentators did

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

....................Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell..........

You should take note that this is a story and not a parable. Wealth and poverty is not a condition for a reward or punishment. In other words: this is not the words of Yahshua, because he came speaking in parables.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The story only promotes the Pagan concept of hell. Hell has never been a concept of Judaism, and still is not to this very day. That story is obviously a corruption inserted into our bibles. The Catholic Church is the one who promoted the concept of hell. Besides all of that, it contradicts the word of God:
Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Since Gods kills the wicked in the final judgement, then how can they be alive in hell?

 

[JudaicChristian]

If you will notice, the story does not start or end with it being said that it is a parable. Nor does it draw any attention to a likeness. Yahshua did not stop speaking in parables until he fulfilled the prophecy during his Resurrection.

Mark 4:34
He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I believe it is both. What I am thinking of making a thread doing it do a verse by verse study on that "story/parable".
I spent about a week translating it from the greek texts then looking at where similar words words were used in the rest of the NT/NC, including the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.
Would anyone be interested?

I do have a thread alread on it

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable - Christian Forums
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable



Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page



Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell..........

I just wanted to let you know that I did read your links.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I just wanted to let you know that I did read your links.

Ok thanks.
Each of those expound on the Greek quite a bit, as do I.
I may disagree with some of their views, but overall, as with any commentary, TEST them with the Scriptures yourself.

Actually, I am enjoying Preston Eby's 7 part series on Melchizedek and have yet to read it all the way thru.

He has actually been labeled "anti-semetic" and a "replacement theologist" by Dispensationalists because of his views of the Bible and "Israel" today.

But then, so have I, many times in the past.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, .......................

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq, king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine and He a Priest of 'El Most-High/'Elyown.
19 and he is blessing him and he is saying "being blessed Abram of 'El most-high/'Elyown, possessor of heavens and land

Hebrews 7:1 For thus/this the Malkiy-Tsedeq King of Salem, Priest of the God/'El of the most-high, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings and blesses/euloghsaV <2127> (5660) him [Genesis 14:18/Matt 26:26]

 

[JudaicChristian]

Ok thanks.
Each of those expound on the Greek quite a bit, as do I.
I may disagree with some of their views, but overall, as with any commentary, TEST them with the Scriptures yourself.

Actually, I am enjoying Preston Eby's 7 part series on Melchizedek and have yet to read it all the way thru.

He has actually been labeled "anti-semetic" and a "replacement theologist" by Dispensationalists because of his views of the Bible and "Israel" today.

But then, so have I, many times in the past.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, .......................

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq, king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine and He a Priest of 'El-Most-High/'Elyown.
19 and he is blessing him and he is saying "being blessed Abram of 'El most-high/'Elyown, possessor of heavens and land

Hebrews 7:1 For thus/this the Malkiy-Tsedeq King of Salem, Priest of the God/'El of the most-high, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings and blesses/euloghsaV <2127> (5660) him [Genesis 14:18/Matt 26:26]

In regards to Replacement Theology. If the New Covenant has not replaced the old, than Christianity is not valid, and is a cult.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In regards to Replacement Theology. If the New Covenant has not replaced the old, than Christianity is not valid, and is a cult.

Btw, here is that site that speaks about Preston Eby just so others here know how some view him.

I have not read much of P.E.'s Commentaries yet, but when looking for a deep study on Melchizedek, he poppped up

J Preston Eby, Eby minstry, Eby heresies, Eby writings, Preston Eby, Manifest Sons of God heresy, Latter Rain heresy

Eby attempts to carry the OT priesthood in Israel to the current day church. This is classical Replacement Theology and incorrectly appropriates the program that God set up for Israel prior to the time of the Cross when Jesus Christ became our priest and mediator between man and God........................
................The anti-semitic MSOG movement that Eby claims to govern his ministry incorrectly and boldly appropriates the title "elect" from that of the remnant of Israel described during the Tribulation's Time of Jacob's Trouble, and applies it to themselves in true Replacement Theology fashion.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[Der Alte]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

[SIZE=+1]Please note that those who claim there is no place of eternal punishment always quote this passage out-of-context.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.​

This passage is not speaking of the eternal condition of the dead, but death as it appears to mortal man. Note it refers to things done "under the sun." If it means the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any more reward, after death, vs. 5. Even the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus knew there was a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
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[JudaicChristian]

Huh.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
[SIZE=+1]Please note that those who claim there is no place of eternal punishment always quote this passage out-of-context........... [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA[/SIZE]

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As far as I know, the Jews of today do not beleve the Christian NT/NC is inspired, including the book or Revelation in which 12 of their own Tribes are listed.

At the risk of sounding "anti-jewish", note the similarity of Matt 23:33, Reve 16:8 and Ezekiel 39:12, which I view as fulfilled. Thoughts?

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

Reve 16:8 And the fourth *messenger poured out His bowl upon the sun, and it was given to Him to burn the men in fire.
9 And the men are burned, a great burning and they blaspheme the name of the God, the One having authority upon the blows, these. And not they reform/repent to give to Him glory.

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the Land seven months.
And all of people of the Land bury them. And He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of my Lord YHWH.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=+1]Please note that those who claim there is no place of eternal punishment always quote this passage out-of-context.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.​

This passage is not speaking of the eternal condition of the dead, but death as it appears to mortal man. Note it refers to things done "under the sun." If it means the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous do not receive any more reward, after death, vs. 5. Even the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus knew there was a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

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[SIZE=-1]Huh.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]I can understand your confusion. I just blew your one out-of-context proof text out of the ball park.[/SIZE]