There is no hell.

[Stryder06]

Line upon line...precept upon precept...

It is our duty to explore all of what the scripture says about this matter and come to a clear understanding on it.

 

[Mikecpking]

What is the point of eternal exile if the person can't experience it because they're gone?

Everything the bible says points to eternal damnation, eternal separation...these mean nothing if the person can't experience it.

You guys are ignoring key verses that speaks of this in your efforts to try to make God look like something he's not thinking that will fill the pews.

Do you belive that 'soul' is immortal? 'It' somehow survives the body after death?

 

[ThomasDa]

"Preacherswife 2004. I'm sure Jesus is real gosh darn proud of you

Your words are a ephemism for a common term taking God's name in vain. I wouldn't do that, but then that's just me.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

"Preacherswife 2004. I'm sure Jesus is real gosh darn proud of you

Your words are a ephemism for a common term taking God's name in vain. I wouldn't do that, but then that's just me.

Well, I wasn't taking God's name in vain so don't you worry your pretty little head off.

Jesus also didn't refer to his fellow Christians as 'swines'. And before you launch into some explanation of the passage, save it. I know what it means, I've used it before.

I'm still a Christian, no matter what you think. So I think I'll just be on my merry way. I learned in debate that when the opposing side has to resort to insults it pretty much means they've lost the battle. I didn't get personal in this thread, I only presented my views and my beliefs. You and Gary decided to make it personal - hence your entire argument just crumbled.

See ya.

 

[ThomasDa]

Who said she didn't have a sense of humor?
And by the way, how did she know my little head was pretty?

 

[Jake49]

Thanks for posting this, it's all really facinating.

I was just talking yesterday with someone about what's popularly believed and taught about hell...

usually involving conscious agonising torment, which is eternal and experienced second by second... minute by minute............ thousand year by thousand year............ MILLION YEAR BY MILLION YEAR.............

come on now....

anyway, thanks for posting this... I'm still exploring this whole subject.

 

[Gary51]

Thanks for posting this, it's all really facinating.

I was just talking yesterday with someone about what's popularly believed and taught about hell...

usually involving conscious agonising torment, which is eternal and experienced second by second... minute by minute............ thousand year by thousand year............ MILLION YEAR BY MILLION YEAR.............

come on now....

anyway, thanks for posting this... I'm still exploring this whole subject.

Yes, it amazing to think that most Christians believe that, while at the same time calling God is all loving. One guy even told me that God roasts people for eternity to glorify Himself.

 

[GuardianShua]

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[visionary]

Gehanna Valley

 

[Der Alte]

Gehanna Valley

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G[/SIZE][/FONT]
​

 

[GuardianShua]

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G[/SIZE][/FONT]
​

You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.

 

[Der Alte]

You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.

You quoted one sentence from my post and did NOT even address it, let alone anything else. I don't have "a large mix" of anything. I quoted an encyclopedia article written by Jewish scholars, discussing what the Bible teaches about Gehenna. Yes, there are parables in the Bible. But I find that is a convenient excuse for people when something contradicts their beliefs, then they claim that it is SPAM-Fig; symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

I am aware of the meaning of sheol But there are verses in the O.T. where it means something more than grave. Can punishing a child keep him out of the grave?

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell [sheol].​

There is a lot of moving, shaking, and talking in this grave.

Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

 

[Evergreen48]

I am aware of the meaning of sheol But there are verses in the O.T. where it means something more than grave. Can punishing a child keep him out of the grave?

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell [sheol].

Can punishing a child keep him out of that place that you think is more than the grave?

There is a lot of moving, shaking, and talking in this grave.

Yes, and there is more. Fir trees spoke, and so did the cedars of Lebanon. They said: "Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us."


Isa. 14: 3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5. The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

[archierieus]

You quoted one sentence from my post and did NOT even address it, let alone anything else. I don't have "a large mix" of anything. I quoted an encyclopedia article written by Jewish scholars, discussing what the Bible teaches about Gehenna.

Herr der Alter,

I trust you are aware of the various strains of thought and belief among Jewish rabbis and scholars, including, even, atheism! In Christ's day, as in the inter-testamental period, there were a number of strains of belief in the Jewish community, including Hellenistic Judaism. One might easily select Jewish 'scholars' or 'rabbis' whose teachings reflect one's chosen beliefs.

A good article which touches on this topic may be found in Kittel. Take a look at his article on psuxh. There is good treatment of the several Jewish strains of thought, as well as the OT position, and the NT teachings from Jesus through James--all of which are consistent with each other, but NOT with some of the Jewish beliefs!

Cheers

 

[Der Alte]

Can punishing a child keep him out of that place that you think is more than the grave?

How does this answer my post?

Yes, and there is more. Fir trees spoke, and so did the cedars of Lebanon. They said: "Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us."

Isa. 14: 3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5. The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Did the king of Babylon die, was he buried, did the worms cover his body?

We can recognize that vs. 8 is a figure of speech, anthropomorphism. Attributing human characteristics to something inanimate.

As for the inhabitants of sheol. They were men. They died and were buried. Men can move, speak, etc. So how much of what is written can we dismiss as figure of speech, relying solely on O.T. scripture, not your assumptions/presuppositions?

While this passage does say "proverb" that does NOT necessarily mean not true. Israel is said to be a "proverb" in 1 King 9:7, Ezek 18:2.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You have a large mix of things here. Don't forget that the bible is full of parables; or that the word sheol means grave in Hebrew, not Hell.

I agree with that

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW6.htm

........The following words by George Hawtin are most challenging: "The established visible Church has preached its multiplied sermons seeking to prove its tradition that the vast majority of God's human creation will be LOST, finally, irrevocably, and eternally, and not only will they be lost to God forever and ever, but they will be given up to the most sadistic, inhuman, ungodly torments that could be devised by the vilest fiends. According to the tradition of the Church this hellish torment is to fall upon all who do not believe. It matters not a whit whether they had opportunity to believe or not. It matters not at all if they were born in the darkest jungles of Africa, the swamps of Borneo, or the deserts of India or China. The fact that they never heard there was a God will be no excuse whatever. The fact that they never heard that God had a Son will not impede their dreadful destruction. Heathen who never heard that God had a Son are, according to this teaching, faced with the same dreadful doom as men who heard the Gospel from their birth and yet rejected it.

To add to the stupidity of their teaching they make pitiful attempts to prove that this is the justice of God and that God is manifesting His love in the punishment of sin. The doctrine of eternal punishment is based on a literal interpretation of some of the metaphors of Scripture, to the complete neglect of many other Scriptures. No doctrine has ever been propounded with more confidence and greater bitterness nor with a grossness and coarseness more hideous and repugnant, and, in the face of the love and kindness of God, more inconceivable and incredible" -end quote.

 

[Der Alte]

Herr der Alter,

I trust you are aware of the various strains of thought and belief among Jewish rabbis and scholars, including, even, atheism! In Christ's day, as in the inter-testamental period, there were a number of strains of belief in the Jewish community, including Hellenistic Judaism. One might easily select Jewish 'scholars' or 'rabbis' whose teachings reflect one's chosen beliefs.

A good article which touches on this topic may be found in Kittel. Take a look at his article on psuxh. There is good treatment of the several Jewish strains of thought, as well as the OT position, and the NT teachings from Jesus through James--all of which are consistent with each other, but NOT with some of the Jewish beliefs!

Cheers

If Kittel has something relevant, I have no objection to you quoting some of it here? I "selected" nothing, I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I provided a link. Please feel free to read the entire article and show me where I have misrepresented or quoted out of context.

Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker Greek lexicon - γέεννα

gevenna, h", hJ Gehenna, Grecized fr. µr,NÏhi ( a ) yG« (Josh 15:8 b; 18:16 b; Neh 11:30 ) Targum µn:hiygI ( cf. Dalman, Gramm. 2 183), really µr,NÏhiA÷b, ( a ) yG« (Josh 15:8 a; 18:16 a; 2 Ch 28:3 ; Jer 7:32 ; cf. 2 Kings 23:10 , where the K’thibh has the pl. : sons of H.) Valley of the Sons of Hinnom , a ravine south of Jerusalem. There, acc. to later Jewish popular belief, the Last Judgment was to take place. In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life, hell: krivsi" th`" g. condemnation to G. Mt 23:33 . bavllesqai (eij") (th;n) g. ( cf. Sib. Or. 2, 291) 5:29 ; 18:9 ; Mk 9:45 , 47 ; ejmbalei`n eij" th;n g. Lk 12:5 ; ajpelqei`n eij" (th;n) g. Mt 5:30 ; Mk 9:43 ; ajpolevsai ejn g. Mt 10:28 ; uiJo;" g. a son of hell 23:15 (Semitism, cf. uiJo;" 1cd; Bab. Rosh ha-Shana 17b µnhyg ynb . Cf. the oracle Hdt. 6, 86, 3: the perjurer is }Orkou pavi>"). e[nocon ei\nai eij" th;n g. ( sc. blhqh`nai ) 5:22 . As a place of fire g. (tou`) purov" ( PGM 4, 3072 gevnna purov" ; Sib. Or. 1, 103) hell of fire Mt 5:22 ; 18:9 ; 2 Cl 5:4. Fig. flogizomevnh uJpo; th`" g. set on fire by hell Js 3:6 .—GDalman, RE VI 418 ff ; PVolz, Eschatol. d. jüd. Gem.’34, 327 ff ; GBeer, D. bibl. Hades: HHoltzmann—Festschr, ’02, 1-29; Billerb. IV ’28, 1029-1118. M-M. B.
1485.*

http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/ga/ga-Index.html

†הִנֹּם S2011 GK2183 n.pr.m. (deriv. & meaning dub.; according to Sim Bö Gf al. = wailing, Arabic هَنَّ (hanna), from cries of children (v. infr.), but this improbable)—only in גֵּי(גֵּי&#1488בֶן־ה׳, & abbrev. ג׳ ה׳, n.pr.loc. of valley S. of Jerusalem, (G φάραγγα Ὀνομ Jos 15:8(×2) Σονναμ 18:16; Γαιεννα v 16; Γαιβενθομ 2 Ch 28:3, GL φάρ. Βενεννομ; γὲ βανὲ Ἑννομ 33:6, GL γῇ Βενεννομ; elsewhere usually φάρ. (υἱο&#8166 Ἑννο&#956—cf. sub גַּיְא;—as mere topographical term גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, boundary between Judah & Benjamin Jos 15:8; 18:16; also גֵּי ה׳ 15:8; 18:16 (all P) cf. Ne 11:30; elsewhere always גּ׳ בֶן־ה׳ (2 K 23:10 Kt has גי בני הנם, Qr & G B sing.), & always with ref. to the sacrifice of children by fire, 2 K 23:10 2 Ch 28:3; 33:6 Je 7:31, 32; 19:2, 6; 32:35; on account of this inhuman & idolatrous practice it was abhorred by priest & prophet, & defiled by Josiah; this conception afterward developed, through Is 66:24, into Jewish Gehinnom (cf. WeberSynagog. Theol. 326 ff. DiBuch Henoch. 131 f.) & NT γέεννα. On locality cf. RobBR ii. 273 f. ToblerTopogr. ii 39 ff. BdPal. 103; mod. name (of lower half of valley, toward SE.) Wady er-Rabâbi.

Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 244​

 

[Der Alte]

The following words by George Hawtin are most challenging: "The established visible Church has preached its multiplied sermons seeking to prove its tradition that the vast majority of God's human creation will be LOST, finally, irrevocably, and eternally, and not only will they be lost to God forever and ever, but they will be given up to the most sadistic, inhuman, ungodly torments that could be devised by the vilest fiends. According to the tradition of the Church this hellish torment is to fall upon all who do not believe. It matters not a whit whether they had opportunity to believe or not. It matters not at all if they were born in the darkest jungles of Africa, the swamps of Borneo, or the deserts of India or China. The fact that they never heard there was a God will be no excuse whatever. The fact that they never heard that God had a Son will not impede their dreadful destruction. Heathen who never heard that God had a Son are, according to this teaching, faced with the same dreadful doom as men who heard the Gospel from their birth and yet rejected it.

To add to the stupidity of their teaching they make pitiful attempts to prove that this is the justice of God and that God is manifesting His love in the punishment of sin. The doctrine of eternal punishment is based on a literal interpretation of some of the metaphors of Scripture, to the complete neglect of many other Scriptures. No doctrine has ever been propounded with more confidence and greater bitterness nor with a grossness and coarseness more hideous and repugnant, and, in the face of the love and kindness of God, more inconceivable and incredible" -end quote.

I'm sure anybody can find a book by somebody proposing almost any view a person would care to name.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.​

​

​

 

[Der Alte]

by the major rabbinical schools.

The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim

Appendix Xix.
On Eternal Punishment, According To The Rabbis And The New Testament
(See vol. ii. Book V. ch. vi.)

Leaving aside the teaching of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphic Writing (to which Dr. Pusey has sufficiently referred), the first Rabbinic utterances come to us from the time immediately before that of Christ, from the Schools of Shammai and Hillel (Rosh haSh. 16 b last four lines, and 17 a). 6492 The former arranged all mankind into three classes: the perfectly righteous, who are ‘immediately written and sealed to eternal life;’ the perfectly wicked, who are ‘immediately written and sealed to Gehenna;’ and an intermediate class. ‘who go down to Gehinnom, and moan, and come up again,’ according to Zech. xiii. 9, and which seemed also indicated in certain words in the Song of Hannah (1 Sam. ii. 6). The careful reader will notice that this statement implies belief in Eternal Punishment on the part of the School of Shammai. For (1) The perfectly wicked are spoken of as ‘written and sealed unto Gehenna;’ (2) The school of Shammai expressly quotes, in support of what it teaches about these wicked, Dan xii. 2, a passage which undoubtedly refers to the final judgment after the Resurrection; (3) The perfectly wicked, so punished, are expressly distinguished from the third, or intermediate class, who merely ‘go down to Gehinnom,’ but are not ‘written and sealed,’ and ‘come up again.’

Substantially the same, as regards Eternity of Punishment, is the view of the School of Hillel (u. s. 17 a). In regard to sinners of Israel and of the Gentiles it teaches, indeed, that they are tormented in Gehenna for twelve months, after which their bodies and souls are burnt up and scattered as dust under the feet of the righteous; but it significantly excepts from this number certain classes of transgressors ‘who go down to Gehinnom and are punished there to ages of ages.’ That the Niphal form of the verb used, {hebrew}; must mean ‘punished’ and not ‘judged,’ appears, not only from the context, but from the use of the same word and form in the same tractate (Rosh haSh. 12 a, lines 7 &c. from top), when it is said of the generation of the Flood that ‘they were punished’ surely not ‘judged’ - by ‘hot water.’ However, therefore the School of Hillel might accentuate the mercy of God, or limit the number of those who would suffer Eternal Punishment, it did teach Eternal Punishment in the case of some. And this is the point in question.

But, since the Schools of Shammai and Hillel represented the theological teaching in the time of Christ and His Apostles, it follows, that the doctrine of Eternal Punishment was that held in the days of our Lord, however it may afterwards have been modified. Here, so far as this book is concerned, we might rest the case. But for completeness’ sake it will be better to follow the historical development of Jewish theological teaching, at least a certain distance.

The doctrine of the Eternity of Punishments seems to have been held by the Synagogue throughout the whole first century of our era. This will appear from the sayings of the Teachers who flourished during its course. The Jewish Parable of the fate of those who had not kept their festive garments in readiness or appeared in such as were not clean (Shabb. 152 b, 153 a) has been already quoted in our exposition of the Parables of the Man without the Wedding-garment and of the TenVirgins. But we have more than this. We are told (Ber. 28 b) that, when that great Rabbinic authority of the first century, Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai - ‘the light of Israel, the right hand pillar, the mighty hammer’ - lay a dying and wept, he accounted for his tears by fear as to his fate in judgment, illustrating the danger by the contrast of punishment by an earthly king ‘whose bonds

fn. 6492 In view of the strange renderings and interpretations given of Rosh haSh. 16 b, 17 a, I must call special attention to this locus classicus.
​

 

[Evergreen48]

How does this answer my post?

It comes as near answering your post as your post answered MichaelTheeArchAngel's post. By asking the question that you did, you left the impression, at least as far as I am concerned, that you were of the opinion that punishing a child could keep him out of sheol which meant 'something more than grave', where it would not keep him out of the grave.

Did the king of Babylon die, was he buried, did the worms cover his body?

I'm sure he did die, and most likely worms did cover his body at some point after he was buried. But there is usually at least one literality in any simile of the metaphorical nature.

We can recognize that vs. 8 is a figure of speech, anthropomorphism. Attributing human characteristics to something inanimate.

As for the inhabitants of sheol. They were men. They died and were buried. Men can move, speak, etc. So how much of what is written can we dismiss as figure of speech, relying solely on O.T. scripture, not your assumptions/presuppositions?

IMHO the following passages would dismiss verses 9 &10 of Isaiah 14 as being literal.

Job 3: 11. Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the Ghost when I came out of the belly?
12. Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13. For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14. With kings and counsellers of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
15. Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16. Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Job 24: 19. Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

Ecclesiastes 9:5. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

While this passage does say "proverb" that does NOT necessarily mean not true. Israel is said to be a "proverb" in 1 King 9:7, Ezek 18:2.

Israel is not said to be a proverb in 1 King 9:7. It is written that Israel would become a proverb (to other nations). Big difference. Neither is Israel said to be a proverb in Ezekial 18:2. The proverb there was : "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge".