There is no hell.

[GuardianShua]

All people end up in the grave (Sheol) Have a look at Daniel 12:2.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

What this verse implies is that resurrection, not immortality of the soul is and should be our core belief.

Judgement (as in Revelation) will be a single event and then will punishment takes place either thrown in to the lake fire or live in the New Jerusalem. I don't see any place in the bible that remotely suggests an disembodied soul has an eternal existence outside a living body either in Heaven or hell (More correctly, grave).

Yes, but immortality is an act of God. We have yet to receive that gift. We are not immortal until God grants us that gift.
And again you are reading a parable. There is a great multitude of scriptures that are parabolic. The word "Fire" is often used to mean Judgment.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hey...nothing like a "There is no hell" thread to bring people of all denominations to actually agree on something, huh?

Cograts bro...you've accomplished something no one in the history of these boards ever has!


EDIT:

...just ribbin, bro.

Funny, but a good observation none the less.

 

[GuardianShua]

Everlasting burning.

The word we want to pay special attention to is "eternal". We know that we are never joining to disappear like a spark of used electricity. Instead we will continue for eternity after our earthly bodies die (or judgment day).

So there is a Heaven and a Hell and one is away from God and full of suffering while the other is with God and without suffering.

But let me quote something I read that pertains to this and adds to scripture references:



http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

There are many "Heavens" because the word literally means "Place-s." There is an eternal fire, because there is an eternal Judgment.

 

[GuardianShua]

Funny, but a good observation none the less.

I have not seen this much activity since last year.

 

[Mikecpking]

We know we will receive our glorified body in Heaven but it says nothing about receiving our body back in Hell. For all any of us know, those that go to Hell suffer without a body and are like wisps of smoke.

What makes you think we go to heaven?

John 3:13
Acts 2:34

Our reward is defined in Rev 21 where God will bring out of heaven the new city of Jerusalem to the new earth. Revelation describes a general resurrection and then a seperation of 'sheep and goats' then those you are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. This is bodily.

 

[Mikecpking]

Genesis uses a form of writing that is like poetry. It is also written by men that lacked a better understanding fo the world and the universe and so we must keep that in mind.

Certainly in Genesis 1, but not Genesis 4!

 

[Mikecpking]

Yes, but immortality is an act of God. We have yet to receive that gift. We are not immortal until God grants us that gift.
And again you are reading a parable. There is a great multitude of scriptures that are parabolic. The word "Fire" is often used to mean Judgment.

Yes, it is a gift (Romans 6:23, and we must 'put on' immortality (1 cor 15). The 'lake of fire' is not the same as 'hell', but is God's final act of judgement. I agree 'fire' is symbolic, but I am trying here also to convince that 'sheol' means 'grave' and should be interpreting what the Hebrewws believed in!

 

[GuardianShua]

What makes you think we go to heaven?

John 3:13
Acts 2:34

Our reward is defined in Rev 21 where God will bring out of heaven the new city of Jerusalem to the new earth. Revelation describes a general resurrection and then a seperation of 'sheep and goats' then those you are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. This is bodily.

Scripture says that after Yahwah makes all things new, that He will make this Heaven His dwelling place.

 

[GuardianShua]

Yes, it is a gift (Romans 6:23, and we must 'put on' immortality (1 cor 15). The 'lake of fire' is not the same as 'hell', but is God's final act of judgement. I agree 'fire' is symbolic, but I am trying here also to convince that 'sheol' means 'grave' and should be interpreting what the Hebrewws believed in!

What I do when I see the word "hell" in scripture is remember that the word "sheol" means grave.

 

[Mikecpking]

What I do when I see the word "hell" in scripture is remember that the word "sheol" means grave.

Then we have the same point of view.

 

[wayseer]

We are all sinners, but there is forgiveness for the repentant who keep the commandments.

It would therefore seem you equate forgiveness with going to heaven. You also made the rather bold statement that only the 'elect' are going to heaven. Seems like heaven is your personal idea of who might be going. I am more circumspect in my judgement about such matters.

 

[Der Alte]

Isa 14:9 Hell [sheol] from beneath is moved for thee [king of babylon, vs. 4] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

Looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up, speak, and say.

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the >grave< (SHEOL), and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[SIZE=-1]It looks to me like the dead in sheol, move, meet, stir, raise up by insects. You need to pay attention to the fact that you are reading a parable. And do not forget that translators can make a mistake in their translations. And if they have a particular belief such as HELL, then you can be sure that they will add that to scripture.[/SIZE]

You should take your own advice, and do not forget that translators can make a mistake in their translations And if they have a particular belief such as there is no HELL, then you can be sure that they will add that to scripture.. Are you saying the king of Babylon did not die, was not buried, and was not eaten by worms? Where does the factual end and the not factual begin, is that determined by your particular beliefs? The Jews, who according to you did not believe in hell, always understood this passage to refer to actual, literal events after death. I posted the evidence, you rejected it.

You need to pay attention to the fact that the meaning of the Hebrew word translated parable also means "byword", "proverb", and "common saying, etc." See e.g.,

1 Ki 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.​

Did the insects also cause the dead in Sheol to, "stir, raise up" and "speak and say," "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us," etc?

 

[GuardianShua]

You should take your own advice, and do not forget that translators can make a mistake in their translations And if they have a particular belief such as there is no HELL, then you can be sure that they will add that to scripture.. Are you saying the king of Babylon did not die, was not buried, and was not eaten by worms? Where does the factual end and the not factual begin, is that determined by your particular beliefs? The Jews, who according to you did not believe in hell, always understood this passage to refer to actual, literal events after death. I posted the evidence, you rejected it.

You need to pay attention to the fact that the meaning of the Hebrew word translated parable also means "byword", "proverb", and "common saying, etc." See e.g.,

1 Ki 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.​

Did the insects also cause the dead in Sheol to, "stir, raise up" and "speak and say," "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us," etc?

I don't think your are getting it. That is what the other kings say about the king of Babylon. And again: The Hebrew word "SHEOL" means "GRAVE," not "HELL." Whether the depths of the pit, or the depths of the sea, the earth will give up its dead when God calls to them to rise. And besides all of that your reading a parable. Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?

 

[SummaScriptura]

There is no hell. The words in scripture were not correctly translated into English. The joining of the Pagan religion about hell is a Catholic invention.See Holman Bible Dictionary at: http://studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2696

Michael, you believe in the RCC as much as some committed Roman Catholics do; its just that your belief is negative. Nevertheless, you place the Roman Catholic Church in very ancient times, and you believe all bad things in Christianity are from them. You're just like Bizarro in the Superman comics.

 

[GuardianShua]

It would therefore seem you equate forgiveness with going to heaven. You also made the rather bold statement that only the 'elect' are going to heaven. Seems like heaven is your personal idea of who might be going. I am more circumspect in my judgement about such matters.

The Elect of God go to Heaven in the first resurrection.

 

[Katholish]

MichaelTheeArchAngel and Mikecpking,

We (I imagine many here would agree with me implicitly at least) have such a divergent understanding of what the soul is that talking about the existence of Hell of almost meaningless.

Therefore, your remark is specualative from a Greek philisophical position rather than from a Hebrew perspective.

True, that the understanding of the soul is first explained in philosophical terms by the Greeks, Aristotle in particular but Plato as well, that does not make it wrong. If you are using different terminology, that is one thing (I can't tell if you are saying that what I call soul you call spirit), but to disagree on the essential nature of man is a rather huge difference. Man is both material and spiritual (meaning immaterial). We can know that there is an immaterial part of man because man possesses immaterial knowledge which would not possibly exist in a purely material substance. Hence you claim the soul is material, I have to ask whether either of you think that there is an immaterial part of man if it is not the soul and what this would be, or if you deny any immateriality in man, if you also deny that knowledge is immaterial or if man can actually know anything?

 

[GuardianShua]

Michael, you believe in the RCC as much as some committed Romcan Catholics do; its just that your belief is negative. Nevertheless, you place the Roman Catholic Church in very ancient times, and you believe all bad things in Christianity are from them. You're just like Bizarro in the Superman comics.

I have faith in Yahwah and the Son of Man Yahshua. I have no faith in the RCC.

 

[GuardianShua]

MichaelTheeArchAngel and Mikecpking,

We (I imagine many here would agree with me implicitly at least) have such a divergent understanding of what the soul is that talking about the existence of Hell of almost meaningless.



True, that the understanding of the soul is first explained in philosophical terms by the Greeks, Aristotle in particular but Plato as well, that does not make it wrong. If you are using different terminology, that is one thing (I can't tell if you are saying that what I call soul you call spirit), but to disagree on the essential nature of man is a rather huge difference. Man is both material and spiritual (meaning immaterial). We can know that there is an immaterial part of man because man possesses immaterial knowledge which would not possibly exist in a purely material substance. Hence you claim the soul is material, I have to ask whether either of you think that there is an immaterial part of man if it is not the soul and what this would be, or if you deny any immateriality in man, if you also deny that knowledge is immaterial or if man can actually know anything?

This is what I believe: The body is material and the spirit immaterial, and both body and spirit together makes a living soul.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I don't think your are getting it. That is what the other kings say about the king of Babylon. And again: The Hebrew word "SHEOL" means "GRAVE," not "HELL."[/SIZE]

You are not getting it. The other kings were in sheol, and they rose up, and spoke when the king of Babylon joined them. You repeating your assumptions/presuppositions over and over does not make them more valid.

[SIZE=-1]Whether the depths of the pit, or the depths of the sea, the earth will give up its dead when God calls to them to rise.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

[SIZE=-1]And besides all of that your reading a parable.[/SIZE]

You are ignoring the explanation I posted, the same word means a proverb, byword, and well known saying. Israel became a proverb, to other nations, but they were very real.

[SIZE=-1]Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.[/SIZE]

There is no such name as Yahshuah. All known manuscripts of the N.T. have the transliteration of Yeshua, even when spoken by Jesus. This is another assumption/presuppositions you insist on hanging onto.

Jesus was not criticizing the disciples for believing the prophets, but for not believing them. Read the next verse, Jesus was to die just as the prophets had foretold but the disciples refused to believe it.

Luk 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Did not the Christ[2] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"​

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

[SIZE=-1]If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?[/SIZE]

This is a favorite of antis and they always quote it out-of-context. This does NOT refer to the state of the dead in the grave but that they are no longer part of what happens in this life, "under the sun."

Ecc 9:3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.
Ecc 9:4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [2] -even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.​

[/SIZE]

 

[GuardianShua]

You are not getting it. The other kings were in sheol, and they rose up, and spoke when the king of Babylon joined them. You repeating your assumptions/presuppositions over and over does not make them more valid.

Lets assume that you are correct. There is still this reply: Yahshua said to his disciples: How foolish of you to believe all that the prophets have said. That's because the prophets often speak in parables.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
If the dead know nothing, then how can they speak?