There is no Hell!

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:

Can salvation be found through the Catholic Church, or others in her likeness? http://www.remnantofgod.org/666-CHAR.htm

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The question is not whether or not salvation can be found in the Catholic church. The question is does simply confessing lead to salvation? The Catholic church has no bearing on my original question. That aspect has been added by you and I can't see why. They're not the only church that practice private and public confession.

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:

No one can answer that question, because it depends on what would result or follow.

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Maybe, but that's not even the question that was in play. This question about whether or not salvation can be found in the Catholic church is a whole separate question, posed by you. Why? I have no idea. I mean, it's clear to me from some of your past posts that you don't like the Catholic church. So is there something you want to say about them?

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:

No one can answer that question, because it depends on what would result or follow. Salvation comes by faith first of all, and it is a gift from God. But also by works, as a result of our our faith, and works is what should follow. Salvation does not come by works, but a faith without works is a dead faith. And Yahshua is Yahwah's salvation, and Yahshua is our life saver.

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"Salvation comes by faith first of all, and it is a gift from God."

I agree.

"But also by works, as a result of our our faith, and works is what should follow."

Salvation does not come by works as you seem to be stating in the first part of your sentence. Works are a consequence or side-affect, if you will, of salvation. They happen in response to being saved.

"Salvation does not come by works, but a faith without works is a dead faith."

True.

"And Yahshua is Yahwah's salvation,"

Okay now, I'm confused. Are you saying Jesus is God's salvation or the means by which God provides salvation? If it's the former what does God need to be saved from?

"and Yahshua is our life saver."

I agree.

Forgive me for saying this; but a lot of what I see here sounds like Pharisees arguing. Picking each others nits.

Why do you think I dropped out of the argument? Alot of repetition of what's already been said and seeking the truth replaced with people interested in spreading false doctrine and self-gratification.

JHM said:

Forgive me for saying this; but a lot of what I see here sounds like Pharisees arguing. Picking each others nits.

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Like this?
(Matt 23:24 NASB) "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Zecryphon said:

Really? Because it's pretty plain that's what you've said here. This is YOU speaking from post # 573:

"Doesn't scripture even teach what confession yields a person? (yup, salvation)"

Seems pretty clear to me that you believe that confession yields salvation.

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Nope you are merely seeing things that are NOT there. I don't spot the word ALONE up there, do you? I did in fact indicate that confession does indeed yield salvation, but does that mean it's the only step in the process? No.

Zecryphon said:

"I will remind you as well, that when the guards were torturing Christ and gambling in mockery to him, they didn't even confess once , and Christ still asked His Father to FORGIVE THEM...so I wonder if perhaps they got around to it later, or was Christ ignored and the guards were not forgiven and condemned to hell?"

We have no way of knowing their eternal fate as the scriptures do not say what became of them.

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But it does have Christ asking His Father to forgive them...them! Of all people in the world, the very murderers of Christ, truly the definition of His enemies and the essential essence of an enemy to Any follower of Christ. They were either forgiven or not, you either accept that Christ did in fact "save" them (obviously WILL eventually...), or they were damned. So did Christ's prayer fail, or not? If He is willing to do that for THEM, what does that say of Uncle Ted and virtually any other sinner?

Zecryphon said:

"Perhaps they didn't get baptized in water either, but that's why we are baptized in fire now aren't we?"

As Jews they did get ritually cleansed in water. It is from this ritual cleansing of the Jews, that we get our practice of water baptism.

From the study notes of the Archaeological Study Bible NIV from Zondervan, page 1562:

Baptism was practiced by the Essenes at Qumran as a symbolic act by which one was "made holy by the waters of repentance"

Purification through immersion in ritual baths was required for all Jews in order to preserve that state of purity without which they could neither enter the temple nor participate in its services during major festivals. Numbers 9:10, John 11:55, Acts 21:24-27.

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Way to completely miss the point. Which is simply that it is GOD that ultimately saves us all, not a 12 step process of material rituals that He is tied and bound to administer. Now If He has chosen a specific method to accomplish this for those He saves, then it will happen.

Jews getting baptized in reference to their own practice and then denying/murdering Christ on their time-off from religious devotion hardly qualify in making a convincing argument that they were "baptized" according to Christian teachings. I hope you aren't suggesting this absurdity.

Zecryphon said:

I just want scripture references for the following statements, no need to get all huffy about it. LOL

"Do you believe God is incapable or unwilling to do this for everyone when scripture teaches that ALL WILL BOW and CONFESS to God? Doesn't scripture even teach what confession yields a person? (yup, salvation) Doesn't scripture teach that there is one that will BAPTIZE with FIRE....(of which water was a symbol for) Also doesn't scripture teach that God will reconcile all things in heaven and earth (and under the earth) so that will be ALL IN ALL?"

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I'm not being huffy at all, nice try painting me with that picture. I'm completely at peace and feel joy with my walk and all of my discussions...are you? I just like questions/answers to be as clear as possible. I'll try to cover the content above, but I can't copy/paste the entire Bible, so if I miss a spot that you have a question about, please ask it.

CONFESSION / BOWING

What does it really mean to confess (to God)?

Lev 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these [things], that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that [thing]:

and

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

This conviction felt leads to REPENTANCE, which is required for salvation (Mar 6:12, Act 2:38, Act 3:19, Act 8:22, Act 17:30, 2Pe 3:9, Rev 2:5,

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

So that most just go tell hell afterwards? Cmon...

Confession naturally follows from the conviction of belief, otherwise it wouldn't be "confession", it would be whining or lying because you've been caught and not be called "confession". there is 0 indication in scripture otherwise.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

This judgment doesn't happen in an isolation prison cell.

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Small advisory: Should / Shall / May, all of these terms are synonymous with WILL in scripture hundreds of times, which is clearly the case given the previous verse (shown below).

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I think we both agree that the swearing used in this verse isn't 'cussing'...but if these people knew they were still destined for hell supposedly, I imagine that might change unfortunately.

And then the lord divideth up this confessing bowing mass of humans and tosses most of them into eternal torture...'thanks for the confession and bowin' all of you, really what a gesture, but thou art a dollar short of making the bargain satisfying' sayeth the Lord...."

Actually that section wasn't scripture, just popular theology.

BAPTIZED WITH FIRE / FIRE for something other then hurt/pain?

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Is this the same fire as hell? I mean that same supposed torturing forever in an infinite loop type of vindictive fire? Perhaps this fire is for something else? Can you see the very Elect, these actual ministers running around burning sinners in hell and laughing with the Joy of heaven while doing it?

We are told what dwells in fire, and so many believe the opposite and refuse to see it:

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting [aionios, which makes sense given the answer, keep reading] burnings?

Obviously those being tortured forever, right? NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE:

Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

If this isn't the Elect...what is??? the Elect are in this fire, ministering to those "lost" and being judged in it....the fire is nothing less then God and His power and His power SAVES, we are to WALK in His footsteps and this command doesn't get voided because of death.

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Because that is what judgment accomplishes.
How?

ALL IN ALL / RECONCILIATION.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

That really is EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. it couldn't be more obvious except for listing everyone's name that ever existed, can't blame it for not doing that of course...

So God either will or He won't. A or B, not C. Ultimately speaking A man/women can either defeat God's reconciliation by the one force typically taught that is able to do such an amazing thing in the whole universe! (answer: a supposed stronger will), OR God's will and ultimate design will trump ALL opposition, bring transformation and repentance to that person's heart and convict them of their sin, judge that sin, burn it out and fulfill God's intentions for all as clearly stated in scripture. (I'd love to provide this next, if we can get passed this point somewhat).

Here is an awesome promise, among many given by God:

-----

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

----

It is this knowledge, a knowledge that heals and transforms that I believe God will grant His creation. He is the perfect father, and although is Wrath is terrible to experience and worth avoiding with all of our might, His Love is even greater and it is with this Love that we were created and will all be redeemed ultimately.

What an amazing reason alone to Love the Lord. Can we even count all of them?

God Bless your understanding, regardless of whatever your opinion of me may be. I have a certain way of illustrating what I write when discussing these topics, nothing is intended to come across as angry, sarcastic (toward you), or otherwise mean, if you feel that, forgive me in advance and let's only focus on the discussion itself.

Thanks.


- Brett

JHM said:

Forgive me for saying this; but a lot of what I see here sounds like Pharisees arguing. Picking each others nits.

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You're forgiven. We're just hammering out doctrine and making sure that the truth of how a person is saved is coming through loud and clear. You can disagree and argue about secondary issues til the cows come home, but when it comes to salvation we have to be in absolute agreement with scripture or the door is wide open to false teachers and their false teachings.

"Nope you are merely seeing things that are NOT there. I don't spot the word ALONE up there, do you?"

You don't need the word "alone" when you say that confession yields one thing (yup, salvation). There is only one thing being yielded, the word 'alone' would be redundant at that point.

"I did in fact indicate that confession does indeed yield salvation, but does that mean it's the only step in the process? No."

Thank you.

"But it does have Christ asking His Father to forgive them...them! Of all people in the world, the very murderers of Christ, truly the definition of His enemies and the essential essence of an enemy to Any follower of Christ. They were either forgiven or not, you either accept that Christ did in fact "save" them (obviously WILL eventually...), or they were damned. So did Christ's prayer fail, or not? If He is willing to do that for THEM, what does that say of Uncle Ted and virtually any other sinner?"

Uncle Ted? Kennedy? Why are you bringing him into this? Christ makes it clear that we are saved by repentance and faith. See Luke 13:1-5. We are not saved simply because someone said an intercessory prayer on our behalf. That's more in line with Catholic theology, isn't it? We have no way of knowing what the outcome of Jesus' prayer was. It's just not in the text. You can certainly think those men were saved if it makes you feel better. I think the point of Jesus's words there are to serve as an example to His followers of how they are to live their lives in relation to their neighbors. Even to the point of death, Jesus was still concerned about other people. There's a great lesson there. I do not think they were saved simply because Jesus prayed for them. It takes more than saying a prayer or having another person pray for you, for you to be saved.

"Way to completely miss the point. Which is simply that it is GOD that ultimately saves us all, not a 12 step process of material rituals that He is tied and bound to administer."
Can you drop the snarky comments and just have a civil discussion? No one is talking about a 12-step program here. You brought up baptism as a possible pre-qualification for salvation, nobody else. I was simply trying to share some knowledge about how the Jewish people viewed baptism in Biblical times.

"Now If He has chosen a specific method to accomplish this for those He saves, then it will happen.

Jews getting baptized in reference to their own practice and then denying/murdering Christ on their time-off from religious devotion hardly qualify in making a convincing argument that they were "baptized" according to Christian teachings. I hope you aren't suggesting this absurdity."

We have a misunderstanding. First, baptism is a side issue at this point, because it has nothing to do with whether or not the guards were saved by Jesus' prayer for them. Also, it is not just the Jewish people who denied and murdered Christ. We all put Him on that cross with our sins. I have never said they were baptized according to Christian teachings. I have simply stated that the Christian ritual of baptism has Jewish roots.


"I'm not being huffy at all, nice try painting me with that picture. "
I don't need to paint any picture about you, your posts do a fine job on their own without any help from me.

"I'm completely at peace and feel joy with my walk and all of my discussions...are you?"

Really? Because that's not the attitude that is coming through in your posts. People who are at joy in their walk and discussions do not produce the tone you produce in your posts. I'm perfectly content in my walk, and that's why I'm not rude and condescending in my responses.

"I just like questions/answers to be as clear as possible. I'll try to cover the content above, but I can't copy/paste the entire Bible, so if I miss a spot that you have a question about, please ask it."

So do I, and I have three Bibles near me at all times, no need for you to copy and paste the whole thing.

"CONFESSION / BOWING

What does it really mean to confess (to God)?

Lev 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these [things], that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that [thing]:

and

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

This conviction felt leads to REPENTANCE, which is required for salvation (Mar 6:12, Act 2:38, Act 3:19, Act 8:22, Act 17:30, 2Pe 3:9, Rev 2:5,

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

So that most just go tell hell afterwards? Cmon..."

If a person has been given faith by God and has repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ then they will not go to Hell. The people who have not received the gift of faith from God, who have not repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ, will go to Hell.

"Confession naturally follows from the conviction of belief, otherwise it wouldn't be "confession", it would be whining or lying because you've been caught and not be called "confession". there is 0 indication in scripture otherwise.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

This judgment doesn't happen in an isolation prison cell."

Where does it happen? I would guess it would happen in Heaven.

"Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Small advisory: Should / Shall / May, all of these terms are synonymous with WILL in scripture hundreds of times, which is clearly the case given the previous verse (shown below).

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I think we both agree that the swearing used in this verse isn't 'cussing'...but if these people knew they were still destined for hell supposedly, I imagine that might change unfortunately. "

If the people reading this far are soundly saved, there is no reason for them to be in danger of going to Hell.

"And then the lord divideth up this confessing bowing mass of humans and tosses most of them into eternal torture...'thanks for the confession and bowin' all of you, really what a gesture, but thou art a dollar short of making the bargain satisfying' sayeth the Lord....""

Well now, let's remember when this mass bowing and confession that you're talking about happens. This is to happen when Christ returns to the earth and throws the devil and anti-Christ into Hell along with all of their followers. Any person who is not in Christ, who has not repented of their sins, who has not called upon the name of Jesus to be saved, who has not trusted in Christ to save them, will go to Hell too. Simply acknowledging Christ as King will not save them. Because then it's not a confession of faith, but a acknowledgment of reality. He's standing before them as a conquering king and a judge. He is not there as a savior.

Keep in mind as well how the people reading these scriptures would have understood them. Kings were always invading and taking over territories, right? What happened when a king invaded a land and secured it? He had the citizens of that land come out and bow to him and confess him as king, right? But that didn't mean that the new conquering king just let the people who opposed and fought against him go. No. Same thing with Jesus when He returns. Just because someone says He is king when He is standing before them, doesn't mean that their sins will be forgiven. At that time it is too late. The time is now, before the Son of Man returns to judge the world.


"Actually that section wasn't scripture, just popular theology."

I know.

"BAPTIZED WITH FIRE / FIRE for something other then hurt/pain?

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Is this the same fire as hell?"

At the Day of Pentecost I believe we see the baptism of fire that was promised and the sending of the Holy Spirit. The substance of the fire in Hell is debated among Christians. Some Christians believe that it is a spiritual fire that cleanses the person until they are clean and let out of Hell by God. Others believe that it is a fire that burns but does not consume what it is burning. Similar to the fire that was seen in the burning bush when Moses received the Law of God on Mt. Sinai.

"I mean that same supposed torturing forever in an infinite loop type of vindictive fire? Perhaps this fire is for something else? Can you see the very Elect, these actual ministers running around burning sinners in hell and laughing with the Joy of heaven while doing it? "

Where do you get your ideas from? First off, where do you get the idea that the saints will be in Hell torturing the unforgiven? If they're saints they're not going to be in Hell, right? What makes you think that whoever is in charge in Hell will take pleasure in overseeing the punishment of the wicked for all eternity?

"We are told what dwells in fire, and so many believe the opposite and refuse to see it:

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting [aionios, which makes sense given the answer, keep reading] burnings?

Obviously those being tortured forever, right? NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE:

Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

If this isn't the Elect...what is??? the Elect are in this fire, ministering to those "lost" and being judged in it....the fire is nothing less then God and His power and His power SAVES, we are to WALK in His footsteps and this command doesn't get voided because of death."

So we can forget all about Matthew 28:19 where we are commanded to go into all the nations preaching the good news of Christ and baptizing people in His name. Because the elect will go to Hell and witness to the people there to put their faith and trust in Christ and God will then let them out? If this is what you're suggesting, why send Christ to earth at all in the first place?

Conitnued in next post.

"Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Because that is what judgment accomplishes.
How?

ALL IN ALL / RECONCILIATION.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

That really is EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. it couldn't be more obvious except for listing everyone's name that ever existed, can't blame it for not doing that of course...

So God either will or He won't. A or B, not C. Ultimately speaking A man/women can either defeat God's reconciliation by the one force typically taught that is able to do such an amazing thing in the whole universe! (answer: a supposed stronger will), OR God's will and ultimate design will trump ALL opposition, bring transformation and repentance to that person's heart and convict them of their sin, judge that sin, burn it out and fulfill God's intentions for all as clearly stated in scripture. (I'd love to provide this next, if we can get passed this point somewhat).

Here is an awesome promise, among many given by God:

-----

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

----

It is this knowledge, a knowledge that heals and transforms that I believe God will grant His creation. He is the perfect father, and although is Wrath is terrible to experience and worth avoiding with all of our might, His Love is even greater and it is with this Love that we were created and will all be redeemed ultimately.

What an amazing reason alone to Love the Lord. Can we even count all of them?

God Bless your understanding, regardless of whatever your opinion of me may be. I have a certain way of illustrating what I write when discussing these topics, nothing is intended to come across as angry, sarcastic (toward you), or otherwise mean, if you feel that, forgive me in advance and let's only focus on the discussion itself.

Thanks."

Repentance of sin and faith in Christ are what save a person, not having your sins burned off in Hell. If you find yourself in Hell after death, you're staying there.

Zecryphon said:

Repentance of sin and faith in Christ are what save a person, not having your sins burned off in Hell. If you find yourself in Hell after death, you're staying there.

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"Repentance of sin and faith in Christ", AMEN...both of these things will be had and this is what judgment accomplishes, not a terrorist event to torture for kicks and some sort of divine self-gratification. Not even the worst terrorist could conceive of this level of depravity (for very long anyways)...but yet you assign this savage act to our creator without a blink...and expect me to smile and shake hands and say "at least we agree on the essentials" no doubt.



What about loving your Enemy after those enemies are in Hell? What sort of LOVE do you think God commands for us to USE and to HAVE? Some paltry dime-store version that's less than worthless WHEN IT MATTERS?? After death when all things are made manifest, is it not a convenient time anymore to follow Christ's commandment? so you agree that ministers of fire torture sinners with that fire? I wonder if that fills you with joy...it sure would some "christians" I've known...well, every one shall be salted with fire...and salted with salt...will your salt bring pollution & damage to that subject OR help purify those it contacts?

SURPRISE: BTW, we are told not even God would NOT do such an evil thing as burn things in fire for the ultimate sake of burning alone.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart.

I pray you see some more of these glorious truths someday, and that perhaps it will convict you the next time a mountain full of scripture crushes your idols to powder.

I'm not trying to be hard on you personally, but I don't mind being hard on heretical teachings as I've come to know them.

But alas I risk fighting God's own wisdom in all of this and the might of His own sovereignty, and also perhaps setting a stumbling block for others that are still being weened on milk...so I'll leave you to your peace, whatever peace you can have with such a "loving god."

In Christ's real love,
- Brett

Zecryphon said:

So we can forget all about Matthew 28:19 where we are commanded to go into all the nations preaching the good news of Christ and baptizing people in His name. Because the elect will go to Hell and witness to the people there to put their faith and trust in Christ and God will then let them out? If this is what you're suggesting, why send Christ to earth at all in the first place?

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One more response for this.

The purpose for preaching isn't to save people from an eternal hell. god doesn't need hell to be worth worshiping and having Him in a person's life. God doesn't need eternal torture to get the point across that sin is bad and you should live a "holy" virtuous life in Christ because it is the RIGHT thing to do.

A life with God is a GREATER LIFE, even if hell (or heaven) isn't in the picture.

Just because God has a backup plan for those not to be given to him in this life, doesn't mean the primary plan is totally useless...we are told about the "foolishness of preaching" and the need for it regardless...how else will God call His Elect to help garner in the rest? Where people get this idea that preaching is useless cause God actually saves all like He promises, well, it just BAFFLES me.

Sincerely in Christ's love,
- Brett

Zecryphon,

you also said:
"Uncle Ted? Kennedy? Why are you bringing him into this?"

This reveals to me clearly that you didn't read my original post in this thread...not enough to justify responding to it in my opinion, so I wonder why you bother responding to my posts now? I prefer to discuss these matters with people who READ my entire posts and don't assume most of it. In that post I explain "Uncle Ted" in detail.

Well, enough is enough, I got a new computer to build and it's not going to build itself....sick of this slooooow laptop I'm on....

- Brett

BTW, what happens when your health % hits 0 on this site???