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We have discussed these above verse many times; and you do twists God's Word so you can send billions to hell; and you are totally closed minded to His grace and mercy except you 3 %. There is no grace or mercy or justice when you are speaking of 3% of God's creation they being just or unjust; that is where we differ.I pick ALL the verses together that teach the same thing without me having TWIST THEM to suit my theory (what you want God to do - vs.what HE says He will do).
Keep this in mind when you decide for God - were YOU the one that died that horrible death that Jesus did? Did you take every punch? Every scourge? every thorn in your skull? Carry that cross for miles...
Since you didn't, how can you POSSIBLY decide that God just lets everyone in on His Son's literal back.
Love or not, that cost God plenty.
Here's one other concept that may have escaped you too:
Matthew 10:37
" He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
& what did Jesus Himself say about the number ratio??
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
What part of these aren't clear? (tack that on with Mat. 7:21-23 -not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He will tell MANY "depart from Me you who work iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU.").
We cannot trample on God's mercy He's given us right now in the age of Grace.
Heb 10:
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
You'de have me believe that Jesus' command, "you MUST be born again" is a mere suggestion, and instead, you can trample on the grace of God and live any old way you want and God just opens up the gates for everybody?
The Bible does not teach this, it's an insult to His majesty and sacrifice.
God sent Jesus into this world to reconcile man to God. At that time he was not here to judge us, but to extend Gods grace to other people, so we MAY be reconciled to God. In the final judgment, he, Jesus, will sit in judgment over us. And the sheep and goats will be divided. The goats will not escape, but will die. And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Reconcile: 2643 katallage (kat-al-lag-ay');from 2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor: KJV-- atonement, reconciliation (-ing).
I will Add God is going to reconcile the unjust as well as the just according to Strongs 2643 the unjust will be restored to Devine favor
1 Corin 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Note this says the world not just those in Christ.
1 Corin 5: 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Again no mentioned that you have to be just or born again)
Imputing: 3049 logizomai 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively): KJV-- conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." [Romans 5:10]. The thorough change is wrought in us via the operation of His cross.
Herein is a ministry of mercy and grace! "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM." [2 Cor. 5:19].
Not condemning them to a pagan hell for eternity; not charging them with guilt, to heap upon them loads of condemnation, but simply to give the GOOD WORD, namely, that GOD LOVES THEM, forgives them, and is ready to receive them back to Himself. All is well, come home forsake your wayward course, the Father waits to forgive and receive you. No word of condemnation, not imputing a list of sins against you, but a word of hope, of grace, of love.
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ. This word "for" is the same word as used later "in Christ's stead." In behalf of Christ, as though God did beseech by us, "we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." [2 Corinthians 5 :20]. God is going to beseech the whole creation through the Christ (anointed) company of which The Christ is the Head. The word "beseech" is a strong word, bespeaking of laying hold in earnestness. This company will be filled with divine compassion, "for the love of Christ constraineth us." [2 Corinthians 5:14]. And will this ministry be effective?
As, yes, "And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea and all that is in it, crying out together, To Him Who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be ascribed the blessing and the honour and the majesty (glory, splendor) and the power (might and dominion) forever and ever." [Revelation 5:13, Amplified].
Yes, He purposes in His sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ. Everything that exists in heaven and earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him. AII things shall "center in and tend to consummate and to end in Him." [Romans 11:36, Amplified].
Though the ages run their course, and the time seems long; though the judgments are required and the discipline is severe; though there be many paths washed with tears, and the valley be deep, yet God hath purposed that all shall be fully restored, and the great age of jubilee shall see a universe redeemed from the tyranny of change and decay, delivered into the glorious liberty which rightfully belongs to the children of God, and the whole purpose of the ages shall rebound to the glory of God. We bow to worship HIM who truly "doeth all things well."
The blood of Jesus will reconsile all of God's people back to his devive favor
So now you are going to tell me God is going to send a baby goat to hell. What did the baby goat do so bad? First of all let me say I believe Gods word is totally inspired by the Spirit of Truth; I also believe there are many ways of approaching its reality. One of these ways is though the tradition of religion; another is by the letter that killeth (literal); but the scripture declares is the Spirit of Truth will lead us and guide us into all truth. Is truth mere puppeting the traditions of the past; or does God have something to say to us now by His deep and abiding truth in scripture?God sent Jesus into this world to reconcile man to God. At that time he was not here to judge us, but to extend Gods grace to other people, so we MAY be reconciled to God. In the final judgment, he, Jesus, will sit in judgment over us. And the sheep and goats will be divided. The goats will not escape, but will die. And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.I did read what you had to say. I think it would be better for you to state your beliefs in a few short sentences.
It is god's timing not yours or mine; God's grace does not end at the grave; nor does His mercy stops because we stop breathing.God sent Jesus into this world to reconcile man to God. At that time he was not here to judge us, but to extend Gods grace to other people, so we MAY be reconciled to God. In the final judgment, he, Jesus, will sit in judgment over us. And the sheep and goats will be divided. The goats will not escape, but will die. And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.I did read what you had to say. I think it would be better for you to state your beliefs in a few short sentences.
Yes, ALL will see Gods salvation, even the condemed. However, salvation is for the Elect of God, but the condemed will die because they did not repent. Death is their punishment. Sad, but true. In regards to Romans 5: "All" is not everyone, but everyone saved. The condemed still are cut off from the living in death for all eternity.We are all over the place on these debates; I have shown this scripturally in so many ways; in so many posts. Here are a couple verse that declare it and I just posted as well as look at the post on reconciliation.
Luke 3: 6 (amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).
Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.
Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouths)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.
This is why I've kept saying Ben keeps READING MORE INTO THE SCRIPTURES than what it's saying - not only literally, but even in proper context.Yes, ALL will see Gods salvation, even the condemed. However, salvation is for the Elect of God, but the condemed will die because they did not repent. Death is their punishment. Sad, but true. In regards to Romans 5: "All" is not everyone, but everyone saved. The condemed still are cut off from the living in death for all eternity.
At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ comes the second ressurrection; and after that all things will be made new, and death and the grave will be done away with. Perhaps he thinks that is applied to the condemed, I dont know.This is why I've kept saying Ben keeps READING MORE INTO THE SCRIPTURES than what it's saying - not only literally, but even in proper context.
The verses he uses are yanked out and his personal opinions are injected into them all to make them say something he theorizes.
CONTRARY TO WHAT SCRIPTURE SPELLS OUT FOR HIM otherwise. He isn't the only one; there's a whole movement out there fighting to remove punishment.
All they're doing is undermining the necessity of Salvation that God demands we have before we die.
They may as well be playing Monopoly & stealing property & bank money... bcuz they have that bright orange "get out of jail free" card that awaits them when they arrive!
This is why I've kept saying Ben keeps READING MORE INTO THE SCRIPTURES than what it's saying - not only literally, but even in proper context.
The verses he uses are yanked out and his personal opinions are injected into them all to make them say something he theorizes.
CONTRARY TO WHAT SCRIPTURE SPELLS OUT FOR HIM otherwise. He isn't the only one; there's a whole movement out there fighting to remove punishment.
All they're doing is undermining the necessity of Salvation that God demands we have before we die.
They may as well be playing Monopoly & stealing property & bank money... bcuz they have that bright orange "get out of jail free" card that awaits them when they arrive!
Nadiine you are so brain washed
The living death; death is their punishment are you speaking of the second death which is the Lake of Fire? We have theYes, ALL will see Gods salvation, even the condemed. However, salvation is for the Elect of God, but the condemed will die because they did not repent. Death is their punishment. Sad, but true. In regards to Romans 5: "All" is not everyone, but everyone saved. The condemed still are cut off from the living in death for all eternity.
No my beliefs have nothing to do with my brain; God is a Spirit not a brain. My carnal human brain (and especially religious brains) are dead in trust passes and sin; but by His spirit; not by some dead church system will He reveal His reality.but YOU aren't?? I'm the one taking all the scriptures together to form one truth - I haven't cherry picked for myself, or yanked them out of their contexts - or read more into them which then end up refuting OTHER clearly spelled out verses.
Remember God's warning to us about His word:
Proverbs 30:6
5 Every word of God is tested;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
When we change something to suit our interpretation in one area, WE INADVERTENTLY AND ALMOST ASSUREDLY CAUSE REFUTATION AND CONTRADICTION TO ANOTHER AREA.
The entire Bible has to teach one truth and we use the entire thing to arrive at what that truth is. (not that we'll ever have it all perfect; we cannot possibly understand everything - alot of it is not fully disclosed to us and there are language barriers and cultural issues we don't fully know)....
But the central teachings are clear and they are quite plain.
I approach the Bible in many ways; first I tune out all outside influence unless God reveals a reality by His anointing. I might hear a spiritual truth by the Christ in you ( I have even heard Nadiine reveal some hidden manna); or maybe by some unknown preacher on the radio; but what matters is you follow the Christ within; because God’s Spirit speaks with in never with out. I have heard it all; I was a church member as a Baptist, Pentecostal etc; I understand where they are coming from; but the Bible declares “come out of Baby lon” Revelations is the most spiritual Book in the Bible and I will declare Genesis is in a close second place.At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ comes the second ressurrection; and after that all things will be made new, and death and the grave will be done away with. Perhaps he thinks that is applied to the condemed, I dont know.
Yes, ALL will see Gods salvation, even the condemed. However, salvation is for the Elect of God, but the condemed will die because they did not repent. Death is their punishment. Sad, but true. In regards to Romans 5: "All" is not everyone, but everyone saved. The condemed still are cut off from the living in death for all eternity.
The words in our bibles are either translated or interpretated, and that often causes confussion. Basicly most everything you have said adds up, but the part about the condemed after the final judgement, that is not adding up. Perhaps it's a question of interpretation vs translation? Do you have an Exhaustive Concordance? I have both, the Strong's & N.I.V. The reason I study out of both is because what one group of scholars wont reveil, the others will. It's like what you are taught depends on who's team your on. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I highly recommend christians have both, in that way their getting both sides of the story and picture.I approach the Bible in many ways; first I tune out all outside influence unless God reveals a reality by His anointing. I might hear a spiritual truth by the Christ in you ( I have even heard Nadiine reveal some hidden manna); or maybe by some unknown preacher on the radio; but what matters is you follow the Christ within; because Gods Spirit speaks with in never with out. I have heard it all; I was a church member as a Baptist, Pentecostal etc; I understand where they are coming from; but the Bible declares come out of Baby lon Revelations is the most spiritual Book in the Bible and I will declare Genesis is in a close second place.
Revelations is not literal book but a spiritual book (a book of symbolisms); a book of what and why God is doing. God is using spiritual symbolism all though scripture; but man and His religion has carnalized it, they have brought the truth down to human understanding instead of seeking asking and knocking what God is saying. They have it all neat and trimmed where then can put the reality of how they believe in there little religious box; not understand it just does not fit in those old wine skins.
The Bible is so full of spiritual patterns and one of these patterns I cant help but ignore is Gods seconds are always more glorious then His first. First Adam-Second Adam; First Covenant; Second covenant-First Resurrection-Second Resurrection; law-grace. All thought the OT the pattern was the second son God was blessing; never the first. He killed the first born; first born always speaks of Adam; gods second son is always Christ. So the second death cannot be look at as if it has anything to do with carnal natural death; but spiritual death; death to self.
Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; signified or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.
PC Bible Study Bible is an awesome Bible reference I have on my Desk top and I love Bible Gateway on line. But this who debate is not over the source of truth; which is the Spirit of Truth and none other; or it is just human; carnal reasoning. The Bible declares all men are liars; count me in thanks to my great- Granddad Adam; it is only by God’s Spirit can God open up those deep wells of spiritual insight. Let the Spirit of truth become our telescope to open our spiritual eyes and ears to probe the deepness of God’s Word.The words in our bibles are either translated or interpretated, and that often causes confussion. Basicly most everything you have said adds up, but the part about the condemed after the final judgement, that is not adding up. Perhaps it's a question of interpretation vs translation? Do you have an Exhaustive Concordance? I have both, the Strong's & N.I.V. The reason I study out of both is because what one group of scholars wont reveil, the others will. It's like what you are taught depends on who's team your on. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I highly recommend christians have both, in that way their getting both sides of the story and picture.
Try checking out Ray Prinzing's "Revelation a Postive Book" which you can find on the internet. It will answer a lot of these questionsThe words in our bibles are either translated or interpretated, and that often causes confussion. Basicly most everything you have said adds up, but the part about the condemed after the final judgement, that is not adding up. Perhaps it's a question of interpretation vs translation? Do you have an Exhaustive Concordance? I have both, the Strong's & N.I.V. The reason I study out of both is because what one group of scholars wont reveil, the others will. It's like what you are taught depends on who's team your on. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I highly recommend christians have both, in that way their getting both sides of the story and picture.
If you have a bunch of yes men on the same team, your not going to see a difference. Are your ears itching to hear that there will be no lose of life, or is it that we are to deaf to hear? That is the question! Sometimes the truth is not what we would like to hear. It would not do any harm to re-evaluate.PC Bible Study Bible is an awesome Bible reference I have on my Desk top and I love Bible Gateway on line. But this who debate is not over the source of truth; which is the Spirit of Truth and none other; or it is just human; carnal reasoning. The Bible declares all men are liars; count me in thanks to my great- Granddad Adam; it is only by Gods Spirit can God open up those deep wells of spiritual insight. Let the Spirit of truth become our telescope to open our spiritual eyes and ears to probe the deepness of Gods Word.
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