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If every choice we make is predestined choosing, how is that NOT choosing?There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.
Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.
The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?
It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.
All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.
"If we treat people fairly - and are told by God to treat people fairly - how much more will God do this, as our perfect example? "God is perfect, God is merciful and God is just and on the side of justice.
How is it just to say "I ordained, and willed, that you would sin against me, and now that you have done what I decided you would do, I'm going to punish you for it"?
That's what happened to Adam and Eve, Cain, the people of Noah's day etc. etc.
If sinful men would not give snakes to their children who asked for fish, nor stones when they wanted bread, why would our heavenly Father - who is perfect and knows how to give good things to his children? If we treat people fairly - and are told by God to treat people fairly - how much more will God do this, as our perfect example? One of the qualities that Jesus disliked, and spoke out against, was hypocrisy. Where do you get the idea that God would command us not to refrain from doing something when he was unable to do that himself?
God is love, 1 John 4:8.
Love does not dishonour others, it is kind, it is not easily angered nor does it keep a record of wrongs. It always protects, always hopes, always perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
God is light, there is no darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5.
Yet you seem to be saying that God can ordain/plan that we sin against him, punish us for doing what he wanted and made happen - and that's ok because God's ways are higher than our ways and he can do what he wants.
I never said you did.
I asked how you would react to someone who nobly ran into a fire to save children, and then admitted that they set the fire in the first place.
You obviously haven't got an answer - or if you have, you're not prepared to say it.
No; no one does.
But he has revealed his nature (love) his will, his ways and his plan in Scripture. We can't say what we like about God and then say "oh we don't understand his ways". God is light, there is no darkness in him at all - no sin, no injustice, no wanting to pay people back, no demanding a certain standard from us and then doing the opposite.
God is Holy, pure, light and love. He hates sin and wants sinners to repent.
Why would he create us and plan that we sin, just to be able to send his Son to die in agony and torment, in order to defeat sin?
Why would God, the prophets, John the Baptist and Jesus have said "repent" of your sin, if God had wanted them to sin? Why did God punish people for doing what he wanted them to do?
Why do we bother to preach the Gospel? Non-Christians may not believe in God or have accepted Jesus, but they are doing God's will and what he created them to do - sinning.
I'm not asking you to answer for God, I'm asking you to look at your illogical position, and view of God, because he has revealed himself to us in Jesus.
I believe God. I don't believe your position, since you cannot even defend it.
Hey, Sis! Good to see you again! And great post! Love that mention of the human habit of thinking himself the measure of goodness and justice. And I would add to that, the tendency to think himself to be the arbiter of fact, as though empiricism and thought is substance itself!I didn't say that . . .
All that comes to pass can only do so because of what God has established/decreed/ordained.
God ordained that Adam could sin. . .and Adam chose to do so.
Adam could not have sinned had God not ordained that he could do so.
God could have made Adam fixed in righteousness. He did not.
What God ordains is allowed to happen, neither caused to happen, nor prevented from happening.
He gave Adam the ability to choose righteousness or unrighteousness.
God ordained that Adam could sin.
God could have ordained that Adam could not sin.
But he ordained the former.
My answer goes to the premise of your question--i.e., that man is the measure of goodness and justice--rather than to the question itself. God addresses that premise in:
"Your ways are not my ways.
My ways are higher (better) than your ways" (Isa 55:8-9).
"I do no wrong" (Dt 32:4). (Translate: My thinking and actions are the definition of right, man's thinking and actions are not.)
All my ways are just (Da 4:37, 9:14, Ps 145:17),
and what I do is right (Da 4:37, cf v.35). (Translate: I am the standard for what is right. If I do it, it is by that fact right.)
I have presented the Bible's view of God. . .which you see as illogical.
And what did God do in Jesus?
He sent Jesus to a cruel, painful, fearful, bloody death.
Do you believe his word which has been presented to you above?
Another thought comes to me here. You most likely meant to emphasize the DEPENDENCE of reality, and very fact, upon God's decree. Well done.All that comes to pass can only do so because of what God has established/decreed/ordained.
God ordained that Adam could sin. . .and Adam chose to do so.
Adam could not have sinned had God not ordained that he could do so.
God could have made Adam fixed in righteousness. He did not.
What God ordains is allowed to happen, neither caused to happen, nor prevented from happening.
"What they teach is that our cooperation is required with God’s calling which is a semi-Pelagian theology."You have one writer that supported this idea. I writer who wrote two books of retractions of his earlier beliefs. And the Orthodox Church did not teach Pelagianism that’s an exaggeration. They actually refuted Pelagianism. What they teach is that our cooperation is required with God’s calling which is a semi-Pelagian theology. Pelagian’s theology was much too radical, teaching things like man is capable of obeying all of God’s commandments and attaining salvation without the need for Christ’s atonement. You’re quoting one late 4th century writer who retracted a massive amount of his previous writings and a local synod that is NOT an ecumenical council. I’m quoting a 2nd century writer who was taught by Polycarp who was a disciple of John. So your evidence doesn’t appear in church history for the first 400 years of the church, mine appears in the first 170 years by a writing that is unanimously accepted in the church and always has been. So I don’t think you’re evaluating the evidence very objectively.
Destiny is only the same as fate, in human cynicism. The problem here is that too many people equate God's joyful, willed, full-of-life Intent (Decree, and Predestination, Ordaining, —"whatsoever cometh to pass") as mere cold fate.Even being the very stanch Calvinist that I am, I find this rather difficult to grasp. How God predestines and elects people to salvation, and yet people have a responsibility to accept Christ is a mystery. I have my thoughts but they are outside of normal orthodoxy Christianity.
Hey, brother! Good to see you again!Ok, so you think we can choose other than our highest preferred choice in the moment? Or else our choice is fixed on our highest preferred choice.
I'm hoping some of you can change that though, because from our perspective, we don't know if any of us can or not, etc.Woa Woa, wait a minute. “What we want to be true”? According to what you’re teaching here we can’t want anything. We can’t have wants or desires, that is a product of free will. According to what you’re teaching here we can only want what God makes us want. We can only accept what God makes us accept, we can only believe what God makes us believe. So it seems like you’re getting not applying your own theology to your statement here because according to your theology we are completely unaccountable for anything we say or do. So if you disagree with anything we say or do you’ll have to take that up with God because He’s the One writing this, we’re just the puppets.
You know that is a very big question, and you know there are too many reasons/answers to list, so I don't have enough room to fully answer that here.What is the purpose of the Bible? Why do we have it?
You’re quoting one late 4th century writer who retracted a massive amount of his previous writings and a local synod that is NOT an ecumenical council.
But that’s not what I actually said now is it? So who’s being disingenuous here?Saying this was only one tired old man opinion is disingenous and ignores history.
I couldn’t care less what Trent taught it was rejected by every apostolic church other than Rome. And the only source I quoted was Iranaeus from 170AD."What they teach is that our cooperation is required with God’s calling which is a semi-Pelagian theology."
Isn't that what you are saying when you state that man has "free will"
What does the Scriptures teach. You are elected, predestined, foreknown, chosen. All before the foundation of the world.
And since you said you don't believe in "Total Depravity", I gave you a challenge several days ago to exercise your "free will" and don't sin for a week. How is that working?
BTW-I'm not quoting "one late 4th century writer". I'm quoting a Church counsel (of Orange) who canonized this view in church doctrine and history. Saying this was only one tired old man opinion is disingenous and ignores history.
You, on the other hand, are quoting from the Orthodox position of a semi-Pelagian position and the Catholic position from the Council of Trent that occurred almost 1000 years later. What you do with this information is up to you.
Yes it is"What they teach is that our cooperation is required with God’s calling which is a semi-Pelagian theology."
Isn't that what you are saying when you state that man has "free will"
I never rejected Ancestral Sin, just the idea that man can’t repent and turn to God.And since you said you don't believe in "Total Depravity", I gave you a challenge several days ago to exercise your "free will" and don't sin for a week. How is that working?
I'm not going to address everything I'd need to individually address about this post, but there will be another individual post by me forthcoming.I am rejecting it because it's a false doctrine. Here are two major examples of the Bible showing that we DO have freedom of choice.
1) In the Garden of Eden, both Eve and Adam had a choice whether to bite the fruit or not. Eve was decided by the enemy and made her choice, then she tempted Adam and he made a choice.
2) In the desert, Christ was tempted by the enemy to use his power to turn stones into bread after he fasted for over a month.
These were both free-will choices that were made by Adam & Eve, and by Christ. If these choices were made for them Adam & Eve would not have bitten the fruit and God would have forced them to obey him. If you look at it from the other side, would God the Father force Adam & Eve to disobey him? What would be the reason for God to force his children into sin? It just makes no sense.
Having foreknowledge about what will happen in the future is not the same as controlling the choices that God's children will make. Do you understand now why God gives us free will? It is so we can choose to follow him. We are human beings and not computers running pre-programmed software.
I think the exact opposite is true. Logic and reason will bear out that we are given free will and we choose what we desire, we are not programmed one way and other people another way. Without free will, we cannot choose to follow God's plan. This was the understanding of Christ and his disciples.
If we want to talk about pre-conceived, isn't that what your whole theology is based on? The fact that God preconceived all our thoughts and actions? Are God's thoughts and actions pre-destined or out of his control? I think you will agree that they are not. Being created in God's image means we are created with free will. Anything other than that is a false teaching. Perhaps you are not a member of the Calvinist Church but you follow his teaching to the letter. I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, his disciples, and the prophets who never taught that we are predestind or in other words preprogrammed to be either a sinner or a saint. You're way off on this one.
Just list a few reasons. I’m just curious why people who have no choice in what they do need to know the word of God. Is there something they need to learn? Why are there commandments from God in the scriptures? It seems pretty pointless to give commandments to people who have no control over whether or not they obey them. That’s like me telling my RC car not to go over here or over there when the car can’t go anywhere except where I tell it to go.You know that is a very big question, and you know there are too many reasons/answers to list, so I don't have enough room to fully answer that here.
Try narrowing down your question if you want me to talk about it.
God Bless.
I’m trying to understand why God gave us commandments if He controls everything we do? Why say thou shalt not do this or that if we can only do what He makes us do. That doesn’t make any sense at all.I am rejecting it because it's a false doctrine. Here are two major examples of the Bible showing that we DO have freedom of choice.
1) In the Garden of Eden, both Eve and Adam had a choice whether to bite the fruit or not. Eve was decided by the enemy and made her choice, then she tempted Adam and he made a choice.
2) In the desert, Christ was tempted by the enemy to use his power to turn stones into bread after he fasted for over a month.
These were both free-will choices that were made by Adam & Eve, and by Christ. If these choices were made for them Adam & Eve would not have bitten the fruit and God would have forced them to obey him. If you look at it from the other side, would God the Father force Adam & Eve to disobey him? What would be the reason for God to force his children into sin? It just makes no sense.
Having foreknowledge about what will happen in the future is not the same as controlling the choices that God's children will make. Do you understand now why God gives us free will? It is so we can choose to follow him. We are human beings and not computers running pre-programmed software.
I think the exact opposite is true. Logic and reason will bear out that we are given free will and we choose what we desire, we are not programmed one way and other people another way. Without free will, we cannot choose to follow God's plan. This was the understanding of Christ and his disciples.
If we want to talk about pre-conceived, isn't that what your whole theology is based on? The fact that God preconceived all our thoughts and actions? Are God's thoughts and actions pre-destined or out of his control? I think you will agree that they are not. Being created in God's image means we are created with free will. Anything other than that is a false teaching. Perhaps you are not a member of the Calvinist Church but you follow his teaching to the letter. I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, his disciples, and the prophets who never taught that we are predestind or in other words preprogrammed to be either a sinner or a saint. You're way off on this one.
Yes, plenty. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing, etc.Is there something they need to learn?
For us to try to obey. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing, etc.Why are there commandments from God in the scriptures?
No, it's not pointless. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing.It seems pretty pointless to give commandments to people who have no control over whether or not they obey them.
Ridiculous example.That’s like me telling my RC car not to go over here or over there when the car can’t go anywhere except where I tell it to go.
I don't believe God deliberately closes people's eyes and ears to His message of truth, as that would undermine the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for our sins (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The passage in Isaiah, fulfilled in Jesus' encounter with the rebellious Jews, highlights God's mercy in hardening their hearts, allowing us to receive the message of hope and be grafted in (Romans 11:25-26). Paul explains how this hardening has worked in favor of the Gentiles, giving us the privilege of hearing God's Word and choosing to accept or reject it. This opportunity demonstrates God's mercy towards both Gentiles (represented by Esau) and Israel (represented by Jacob), as discussed in Paul's discourse. Our responsibility is to share this message of hope, sowing the seed, watering it, and trusting God for the growth, without necessarily knowing the extent of humanity's hardened hearts.If you believe that God is the one to open eyes and ears to the gospel, then you must also admit that He doesn't open them for everyone. Not only is this scriptural but obvious to the world around us.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came up and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;And you shall keep on looking, but shall not perceive;15 For the heart of this people has become dull,With their ears they scarcely hear,And they have closed their eyes,Otherwise they might see with their eyes,Hear with their ears,Understand with their heart, and return,And I would heal them.’
I've never suggested that regeneration occurs apart from the Holy Spirit's work. Instead, I've emphasized that God regenerates us as we yield to His transformative power. In this passage, we see a mixed response, dependent on the heart's condition, which remains unknown to us. Our responsibility, therefore, is to obediently serve as conduits of the gospel message, sharing it through both word and deed, just as Paul did. This obedience allows God to work through us, to bring about his redemptive plan for humanity.The key here is that two groups didn't respond. One group did. It wasn't because the last group thought it through and made a decision. It was because the Holy Spirit regenerated their hearts so that they could come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
This is a Calvinist interpretation of that verse, based on word order.Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
It is only those who have been appointed (elect) to eternal life who believed. They didn't believed and then were appointed to eternal life.
The passages I mentioned earlier suggest that God communicates with us through various means, including creation, our conscience, and human experience. As Hebrews 11:6 states, faith involves believing in God's existence and His promise to reward those who seek Him. This is exemplified in Abraham's story, where God revealed Himself to him without a preacher, and Abraham responded with faith. This kind of faith is what we called to have, trusting that there is a God, we now have a name for this God - Jesus. It's not just about hearing the gospel preached, but also about responding. Responding to God's revelation in our lives by the measure of faith given us.One cannot come to Christ through looking at creation or human experience. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God. All those people throughout the world never is given the opportunity to hear the gospel unless God so wills it and sends someone to preach His word.
I consider it biblical teaching.This is good Catholic teaching.
God is always actively drawing, even the person reading this post. He communicates in ways that surpass our understanding, yet everything He does is driven by His desire to welcome us into His kingdom. With boundless generosity, He pours out His love and grace, inviting us to experience the depth of His kindness.Yes, we cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws us. And God doesn't draw everyone. We can't even repent unless God grants it. (2 Tim 2:25).
I don't believe this is questioning God's justice. As He more than demonstrates His justice and mercy when He extends His invitation to us as Gentiles. In His wisdom, He extends the gift of salvation to all, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. As Paul emphasized, neither Jew nor Gentile earned their selection. Instead, God leveled the playing field, making faith - faith in Christ as Gods provision - the only way to become His child, which it always was. Both Jews and Gentiles must rely on God's grace, as neither can claim credit for their redemption.Is that fair? He is the potter. We are the clay. We have no right to tell God what is fair and not fair. He is all wise and all knowing. Everything He does is for our very best. Really, we should all be cast into the Lake of Fire. The reason that we are not is that God extends His grace and mercy to some of us. Why? This is where the mystery lies because we don't deserve anything.
This is the reason the soveignty of God is such an important understanding. We have no right to boast in anything, including our salvation. It is a gift to us who are being saved. It is presumptuous for us to say what is fair and not fair. It is also presuptuous for us to say that we made a choice to follow Jesus. This is a slap in the face to the Holy Spirit in my mind.
From our perspective, we don't know what it is we truly desire or will choose to do next, etc.I’m trying to understand why God gave us commandments if He controls everything we do? Why say thou shalt not do this or that if we can only do what He makes us do. That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Either you’re pretending not to understand or you’re not capable of understanding the problem here. If God controls everything we do then whether He gives a commandment or not is completely irrelevant because WE CANT CHOOSE TO OBEY OR DISOBEY. According to what you’re teaching here WE HAVE NO CHOICE, IT’S GOD WHO CHOOSES WHAT WE WILL DO.Yes, plenty. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing, etc.
For us to try to obey. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing, etc.
No, it's not pointless. Whether that desire was put in us by God, or it is our own desire doing it doesn't change a thing.
Ridiculous example.
God Bless.
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