There has to be some problems in Heaven, right?

[jaybird88]

there must be something going on up there as the bible talks a lot of armies up there. why the need for warriors when all is perfect.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.'

Evil does not exist because of free will. Evil exists because human nature has been deformed by sin.

 

[friend of]

So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways!

Hahah. Yeah. This answer seems to elude us in the here and now. That's where Faith comes in.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I think this whole thread shows a lack of understanding of heaven and being in the presence of God. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. Sin cannot exist in the presence of His holiness and pollute it. When we get to heaven all our sin will be removed from us. Like the smelting of gold where the gold is heated to melting which separates it from the impurities which are then discarded leaving only the pure gold, our sin will be removed from us and discarded. What I believe will be the completely overwhelming atmosphere in heaven will be the love and holiness of God. Sin cannot exist in that environment. The four living creatures who carry the throne of God cry out "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty" because that is the effect of being in the presence of God. You cannot help but cry out in praise and worship in His presence. From the Bible and teaching over the years I believe that when we get to heaven we will have the choice to go into and out of the throne room of God and when we are in there we will cry out in praise and worship and wont be able to help ourselves, but when we leave we the throne room we will be in heaven.

When Jesus said about the 7 brothers who married the same woman, he said people do not understand heaven. Just think about it. When you are in the presence of the Lord God Almighty our love that we have on this earth will be insignificant in comparison. I believe that is why we will be able to cope with loved ones who have gone to hell. We will be completely overwhelmed with the love of God to the point where all else pales into insignificance.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

there must be something going on up there as the bible talks a lot of armies up there. why the need for warriors when all is perfect.

But it doesnt say they fight in heaven that I am aware of. The armies of God are there to serve Him and to fight on our behalf. I think of heaven as being more like their barracks, an impenetrable fortress that the enemy cannot harm us in when we are there. Of course the devil can go there though, as it says in Job. Satan also influenced the angels who fell with him.

 

[fhansen]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

Man was made for communion with God. And while that communion begins here on earth, via faith, it is only fully consummated in the next life, ref 1 Cor 13:12-13. Once we experience the immediate presence of God, knowing Him directly, all desires are met; we are fully and completely satisfied and so the will is no longer swayed to desire anything else, anything less IOW; the ultimate good has finally been found.

This life is sort of a half-way house between heaven and hell, where sin/evil co-exist with good. Here we experience-or know-good and evil and struggle between the two. It's sort of an experimentation of life without God for all practical purposes, with the Master gone away. Do we truly, by our thoughts and words and actions, with the help of grace, believe in and love God? That's how we choose life over death, good over evil. And the reward is a Goodness so good that the human mind can simply never refuse it. God, Himself, is directly the source of human happiness, a happiness we all desire by design.

 

[jaybird88]

But it doesnt say they fight in heaven that I am aware of. The armies of God are there to serve Him and to fight on our behalf. I think of heaven as being more like their barracks, an impenetrable fortress that the enemy cannot harm us in when we are there. Of course the devil can go there though, as it says in Job. Satan also influenced the angels who fell with him.

its for sure a deep subject and i have no idea how it all works. there are scriptures that speak of levels of heaven and i have heard in the very top level, the level of the Most High, no war, but there is war in the other levels. the DSS theology talks of lots of light and darkness fighting going on in the heavens. most is over my head but very interesting.

 

[JacksBratt]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

Free will without sin will not spawn corruption.

First of all, in eternity will not be spent in heaven. It will be spent on the new earth. A new city of Heaven will descend to this new earth. Heaven and earth will exist together for eternity.

Secondly, corruption is unrighteous and unrighteousness cannot exist in God's presence.

Thirdly, free will does not equate to sinful acts unless there is sin present.

It is absurd to think that there will be any problems of any kind in heaven.

 

[Colter]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

The ideological war broke out in heaven first. BTW, when did the "crafty beast" fall???? He was already evil when he began working on Adam and Eve!?


Revelation 12:7-17

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

its for sure a deep subject and i have no idea how it all works. there are scriptures that speak of levels of heaven and i have heard in the very top level, the level of the Most High, no war, but there is war in the other levels. the DSS theology talks of lots of light and darkness fighting going on in the heavens. most is over my head but very interesting.

I should explain that what I think of when people say heaven is the third heaven where God dwells.

The ideological war broke out in heaven first. BTW, when did the "crafty beast" fall???? He was already evil when he began working on Adam and Eve!?


Revelation 12:7-17

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And as this says, neither was their place was found any more in heaven.

The battle has been won in the third heaven. The first and second heaven are, I believe, what we tend to think of as the spiritual realms and this is where the battle still goes on, although we know Jesus has won.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways!

How wonderful and perfect YHWH has planned all things;
leading to salvation in Christ Jesus for all who love Him and who are called according to His Purpose.

Yes, this world is fully evil and wicked. (pernicious: see in Galatians)
(and worshiping demons: see in Revelation and Ephesians)

No, in heaven there is no sin , nor evil, nor pain, nor any such thing...

Yes, it is impossible the way men think to ever see heaven,
or to realize it is perfect, just as YHWH says.
It is rare on earth to enter the kingdom of heaven today,
as YHWH says, through Jesus, according to Jesus Words in Scripture.

So seek Him, and keep seeking.
Ask Him, and keep on asking.
Never give up - the desire and the hope and the strength to keep on seeking Him, all in all, is a gift from Him. Few ever make it to endure to the end, but those who do
are rewarded as He says in His Word. (have to read the Bible , and be given understanding from the Father in heaven, YHWH Willing, to have the veil removed, so that it may be true then/now/today: " Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,")

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Have you committed murder?

Interjection: yes, everyone has, except Jesus. Why do you ask?

 

[Resha Caner]

Interjection: yes, everyone has, except Jesus. Why do you ask?

If you refer to 1 John 3:15, that is not what I meant. I meant simply the physical act of taking a person's life.

 

[CrystalDragon]

After death we are different people. Paul wrote that those who die are free of sin. We get new bodies who are different from ours here and cannot be tempted anymore. Heaven is another place that is metaphysically different where sin simply does not come to mind anymore. It's all about love and goodness then. Add the traditions of Heaven, the angels as a police force, etc. God is more present too and Jesus built a life for us.

Then we basically have who we are wiped. We aren't us anymore. We're changed into something that isn't recognizable as "us".

 

[CrystalDragon]

Presuimably, there is free will in heaven because we know that even the angels had it and some chose to rebel. But in heaven we will also be in love with righteousness, unlike life in Earthly society.

Is there anything in the Bible that actually says that? And if that is the case, then sin must exist in heaven if angels were able to sin.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Heaven is coming down at the end of the Millenial Reign of Messiah. The kingdom of God is gonna be right here on earth, which will be renewed. God's kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness. The world is full of lawlessness. When the Messiah comes back to establish the kingdom, it will certainly be a great time

Didn't the Apostles and Bible writers assume that Jesus was coming in their lifetimes? Supported by what Jesus apparently said, no less?

 

[Albion]

Is there anything in the Bible that actually says that? And if that is the case, then sin must exist in heaven if angels were able to sin.

I have read so many and such a variety of explanations of this matter that I personally do not really know. However, many books of the Bible address it in some way or other--Revelation, I Peter, James, Romans, Hebrews and more. The most relevant consideration may be that the angels who rebelled were allowed by God to do so or even elected, but that was before the foundation of the world was laid, so this suggests that the answer about sin in heaven--or lack of it--has to be looked after the rebellion of the angels.

 

[marineimaging]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

You are confusing the world that entered into sin out of the Garden of Eden, Satan world, and Heaven. The answer is in the Bible but you have to read it to find it. Jesus paid the price for your eternal blessings in heaven. No, there is no sin, no sorrow, no pain in heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then we basically have who we are wiped. We aren't us anymore. We're changed into something that isn't recognizable as "us".

Actually, as you've already experienced,
apparently,
this , for many now today on earth,
has already been done to them.
To be free
requires such grace as few ever accept .....

 

[Halbhh]

Let's look at the world, in any government corruption is the norm not the exception, governments are actually evil to the core! Disease. Physical injuries/accidents, etc. Starvation. The entire world is a profit based system that actually builds things to fail to maximize profit. Corporations buy patents for things that are TOO good in order to hide them from the light of day, etc. Anyway, I believe Heaven has to be the best possible world WHERE FREE WILL EXISTS.

I always shake my head at the argument that 'God did not want to make robots so he gave us free will, but unfortunately that means there will be sin and evil.' The same person will also claim that there is no sin in Heaven. So we WILL be robots in Heaven?? Can't have it both ways! I believe Heaven will be the best possible world, no disease, no hunger, a GOOD to the core world government (Jesus will be the king of the world in the new Earth), people will heal instantly from injury (we'll be a bunch of Wolverines without the claws). But, unless we are non-free will robots your lover can still cheat on you, people can decide to steal, etc. Can anyone tell me how you can have a perfect sinless Heaven without free will? Or do you agree with me?

That's why the entrance requirements include that the people making it in must keep Christ's commandments (or He will reject them as "lawless"), such as:

"Love one another"

"Love your enemy"

"Forgive"

See? And faith, trust is a key to love that lasts, instead of going bad.

Why the new Heaven can have lasting peace and harmony is because only faith and love, demonstrated, are permitted to enter.