There Are Good People On Both Sides

[Jenny_8675309]

You might criticize him for being unclear, but to say that he said anything about supporting nazis or any similar group would be a lie. I think that we can all agree on this, if we simply read what the president actually said and restrict our analysis to that.

Far too many people are treating the interpretation of news outlets of what the president said as what the president actually said.

Analyse what "both sides" means. There's only two sides, one of which is Nazis, and he said "both". Not a lot of wiggle room there.

 

[PeachyKeane]

If simply getting liberals upset is your main aim then your political movement isn't going to last very long.

Have you talked to the right?

 

[variant]

Have you talked to the right?

Yeah, they often say they want to accomplish real policy.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

I'm amazed at the lengths some apologists are going to to deny the undeniable here.

Do they really think anyone will be convinced by this nonsense?

 

[PeachyKeane]

You might criticize him for being unclear, but to say that he said anything about supporting nazis or any similar group would be a lie. I think that we can all agree on this, if we simply read what the president actually said and restrict our analysis to that.

Far too many people are treating the interpretation of news outlets of what the president said as what the president actually said.

Yeah, it's the big bad media's fault that Trump said what he said.

Did he say good people were protesting alongside Nazis?

 

[PeachyKeane]

I'm akazed at the lengths some apologists are going to to deny the undeniable here.

What else are they going to do? Imagine how much they hate the center and left to side with, and defend Nazis

 

[variant]

....Trump believes he saw these "good people"....

So, there are good people marching side by side with Nazi's, the KKK and white nationalists to preserve the historical monument to Robert E. Lee, in a totally non racist way eh?

 

[variant]

I'm amazed at the lengths some apologists are going to to deny the undeniable here.

Do they really think anyone will be convinced by this nonsense?

I think we're past the point in politics where we say some arguments are too stupid to convince some people.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Analyse what "both sides" means. There's only two sides, one of which is Nazis, and he said "both". Not a lot of wiggle room there.

First of all, it's not generally true that whenever there are "both sides", that one of them has to be the nazis. Most of the time when the phrase is uttered in politics "two sides" means the left and the right, and hopefully we can agree that "the right" is not synonymous with nazis. Thus even if we had no context beyond the statement that you quote, there would be no reason to think that the statement had to be an endorsement of nazism.

But if we do look at the context, we see (using the very article you linked to) that President Trump also said this:

“I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said.

“You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”

That is, he made clear that he did not support nazis, and that he did not consider either of the two sides to consist entirely of nazis or white nationalists. This expanded context gets us even further from your interpretation, indeed I don't know how anyone can support your interpretation with the existence of these statements.

Now you might counter with the claim that President Trump was wrong and that one side really is entirely made of nazis. But in that case he would simply be mistaken about the composition of the two groups and he would have been operating under the same mistake when he spoke of "both sides." Therefore even if he is wrong about the composition of the groups, his "both sides" statement still is not an endorsement of nazis.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

What else are they going to do? Imagine how much they hate the center and left to side with, and defend Nazis

The worrying thing is how effortlessly they slip into it, as though they don't see the problem with this whole Nazi thing, that whole Holocaust thing isn't such a big deal and they've just been playing along as the done social thing

 

[variant]

First of all, it's not generally true that whenever there are "both sides", that one of them has to be the nazis. Most of the time when the phrase is uttered in politics "two sides" means the left and the right, and hopefully we can agree that "the right" is not synonymous with nazis. Thus even if we had no context beyond the statement that you quote, there would be no reason to think that the statement had to be an endorsement of nazism.

He was clearly talking about people at the protest in context.

Now you might counter with the claim that President Trump was wrong and that one side really is entirely made of nazis. But in that case he would simply be mistaken about the composition of the two groups and he would have been operating under the same mistake when he spoke of "both sides." Therefore even if he is wrong about the composition of the groups, his "both sides" statement still is not an endorsement of nazis.

The people at the protest on one of the sides were either part of one of the various hate groups or perfectly fine marching along side them.

I doubt you'll find any good people happy to march along side neo-natzi's and KKK members at a hate rally.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

First of all, it's not generally true that whenever there are "both sides", that one of them has to be the nazis. Most of the time when the phrase is uttered in politics "two sides" means the left and the right, and hopefully we can agree that "the right" is not synonymous with nazis. Thus even if we had no context beyond the statement that you quote, there would be no reason to think that the statement had to be an endorsement of nazism.

But if we do look at the context, we see (using the very article you linked to) that President Trump also said this:



That is, he made clear that he did not support nazis, and that he did not consider either of the two sides to consist entirely of nazis or white nationalists. This expanded context gets us even further from your interpretation, indeed I don't know how anyone can support your interpretation with the existence of these statements.

Now you might counter with the claim that President Trump was wrong and that one side really is entirely made of nazis. But in that case he would simply be mistaken about the composition of the two groups and he would have been operating under the same mistake when he spoke of "both sides." Therefore even if he is wrong about the composition of the groups, his "both sides" statement still is not an endorsement of nazis.

We're not talking about "what's generally true" we're talking about in this specific instance.

 

[wing2000]

So, there are good people marching side by side with Nazi's, the KKK and white nationalists to preserve the historical monument to Robert E. Lee, in a totally non racist way eh?

sadly...there are people who will believe him..."believe me"

 

[MoonlessNight]

We're not talking about "what's generally true" we're talking about in this specific instance.

That's right. We're talking about what President Trump in particular said. And, as I noted but you ignored, he made statements that make your interpretation of his remarks impossible.

 

[variant]

sadly...there are people who will believe him..."believe me"

You can't fix stupid, but the willful ignorance of reasonably intelligent people can certainly be cracked.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

He was clearly talking about people at the protest

I really wasn't expecting to see anyone suggest Trump was talking about some OTHER "both sides", but finding yourself in a semantic dead end makes people say weird stuff, I guess.

 

[GondwanaLand]

Analyse what "both sides" means. There's only two sides, one of which is Nazis, and he said "both". Not a lot of wiggle room there.

And he also said that the night before, the protestors were quiet and peaceful and "very fine" people. That is a reference to the night march with tiki torches while chanting Nazi slogans, across the campus the night before.

 

[Jenny_8675309]

That's right. We're talking about what President Trump in particular said. And, as I noted but you ignored, he made statements that make your interpretation of his remarks impossible.

Assuming Trump was telling the truth. Which is a pretty big assumption.

 

[variant]

I really wasn't expecting to see anyone suggest Trump was talking about some OTHER "both sides", but finding yourself in a semantic dead end makes people say weird stuff, I guess.

This is the point in the argument where I feel like I'm toying around with my food and not accomplishing much.

 

[MoonlessNight]

The people at the protest on one of the sides were either part of one of the various hate groups or perfectly fine marching along side them.

I doubt you'll find any good people happy to march along side neo-natzi's and KKK members at a hate rally.

At least you admit that he wasn't referring to neo-nazis and KKK members, as his other remarks make obvious. That at least establishes that the people who said that he did support such groups were lying, he made no such remarks.

If you want to say something like "The President said that there are good people who attend rallies that are also attended by neo-nazis and KKK members, but who are not of those groups themselves" you could at least defend that interpretation. But it lacks the rhetorical kick of the lie that people have been using, so I doubt it will catch on.