Theory on the origin of evil

trophy33 · May 3, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Peace my brother.
I agree with your last sentence.

You should also agree with at least my second sentence: Only God is good:

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Mk 10:18

You should also agree that "it was good" regarding creation does not mean "without any evil", because there was already satan present, so obviously also evil.

com7fy8 · May 3, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process.

I will offer my opinion; I would say the Bible does not directly deal with this. A basic, though, that I am going by is in the Bible > our Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. I personally understand that this spirit of evil . . . of selfishness . . . is an actual spiritual being. And this evil spirit of Satan works people to do what is evil. It deeply degrades a person's nature so the person can sin and then so suffer after getting those no-no pleasures. This evil being is desperate to feel pleasure so it can feel nicer, but it ruins humans into suffering, in the process of seeking pleasure. So, humans are piggy-backing on Satan's problem.

Jesus says Satan's children have his desires > John 8:44. So, I can see how the lusts > desires with driving emotions > for pleasure are actually Satan's desires living in a person. And so I see how in sinful pleasure seeking and its resulting degradation, we can be piggy-backing on Satan's problem. We need to rest and ride in God's love and leading, instead, and "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

I think we can see that evil consists of how ones are desperate for pleasure, taking control so they can get it, and reacting so badly when they don't get it.

And this evil spirit has dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure and revenge and reacting to not getting its own way. Satan is a conscious being, and his spirit's drives and misery and desperation are conscious in ones who obey his lusts which are dominating and dictatorial and bring people to disappointment and frustration.

But God is so perfectly good in love, so perfectly satisfied so He is not driven-so to seek to use physical things for pleasure. So, in Jesus we have such "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, included in evil is how Satan's spirit is spoiling people from enjoying the rest and caressing of God's love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

The Righterzpen said:
I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself.

I personally think that Satan's evil spirit did predate creation. And my opinion is that God who is all-good could not have gotten Himself to come up with even the idea bringing the spirit of evil into existence. Nor could His "very good" creation of its own nature have brought sin and evil into existence, or even think of it. Therefore, I consider it possible that the spirit of evil has always existed. But it is not immortal in life of love, but merely existent but capable of being conscious in its horribleness. Only God is truly alive, in love.

So, in case my theo-logic is correct, there is a problem with what >

you Righterzpen said:
in eternity, besides God there was nothing

I can see that if there was a point in eternity when there was nothing but God all-good, there never could have been anything inferior. For God Himself could not have brought something inferior into existence. He would not have been able to even imagine any being less than He is, since at such a point He was all good.

But if there were inferior spiritual substances, He could have worked these for His creative purposes, even organizing the spirit of evil so it would not be just anywhere and everywhere, and plan a flaming sewer of fire and brimstone where He would put it, away from us who are His children.

Now, who would be the chief sewer bucket, then?

The Righterzpen said:
He knew that as soon as He "did" something; there would be an equal and opposite reaction to what ever He did. (Note I'm not saying "equal an opposite reaction" to what God is!)

I have offered what would not agree with this. Possibly, you can see why. It was not only about opposite reacting. And God is almighty to easily and breezily and beautifully do all He pleases. Evil never has a chance against God.

We see, even, how God uses evil for His intentions. Look > consider . . . how Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers, yet God used that for His all-loving purpose > Genesis 37:50. And we see how the torture and murder of Jesus on Calvary has been used for such all-loving good, even for ones who have hated and rejected Christ but then have trusted in Him.

So, everything, actually, is cooperating with God Just don't be a sewer bucket > Ephesians 4:31-32 < of unforgiveness and bitterness and wrath and lusts. Or else, one will serve His purpose, but not by being conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

The Righterzpen said:
Evil was inherent in the act of creation itself because it was the opposite reaction to God's action.

I have offered otherwise, how there is the actual conscious existing "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) So, evil is not only a reaction, or some sort of resistance, but conscious and sharing its horribleness and vanity inside humans.

Instead, we can be sharing with God, in His own love > Romans 5:5 > and how He personally rules each of us in our "hearts" with His own peace > Colossians 3:15.

By the way, evil is not only resistance against our living in God's love and joy and peace. But Satan and his spirit actively attack us, in order to degrade us into being controlled by those dominating and dictatorial lusts > "which war against the soul," our Apostle Peter says in 1 Peter 2:11. So, evil is not only resistance, but actively attacking us spiritually and emotionally and in our feelings. It is conscious >

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

"Be sober, be vigilant; for your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

All of us have experienced how we can be devoured by Satanic things of unforgiveness, bitterness, and lusts and nasty raging anger about not getting things we want.

So, evil is not only resistance or some sort of a drag.

By the way, "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. So, God is the One who is doing the resisting . . . but this is loving and caring so proud people do not keep going the wrong way all the way where Satan would take them in his pride of his wicked and nasty-reacting spirit.

But, also, God can use one evil to resist another. This can be what the LORD in Isaiah means where He says He "creates evil". He does not start or cause it, but He creatively manages it with His purpose to resist and deal with wrong people, in order to limit their self-destuctive stuff and how they would harm others. So, it is sort of like setting a backfire in order to keep a raging forest fire in check.

And it is like how humans have a system for taking sewage to where it belongs; but first Jesus wants to save whoever trusts in Him (Ephesians 1:12). So, the flaming sewer's feast is on hold, and evil is being kept here on earth for a while.

The Righterzpen said:
The knowledge of good and evil had a profound impact upon this universe!

I will offer the knowledge is not the problem. But there is the evil spirit of Satan, who degraded Adam and Eve so they had a bad understanding of good and evil. They mainly were noticing their outward situation, then getting worried about being outwardly naked, which was not their real problem. Plus, deep inside themselves, in that evil spirit they could feel shame and fear and being spiritually vulnerable, and be ready to blame someone else. So, it was the evil spirit of Satan and how he is and sees things, being shared with them > including by accusing others, instead of first dealing with how he is so wrong. So, yes we can so share with Satan and how he does things. Evil, then, is not only some force, but personal and having us busy with accusing and blaming others . . . including so we do not seek our Heavenly Father for the correction which we ourselves so need . . . and only God is able to do in us > Hebrews 12:4-14.

So, yes, evil is very active and so clever.

So, it is important not to only depend on knowledge, but submit to how God rules us in His peace, so His peace enlightens and encourages us about what God has us knowing, and God makes us also creative to do what He has us doing about evil, sharing in how He even uses evil for His all-loving good, and is not about solving our troubles only so we can have the lives we want > part of what is evil is how we can try to solve our problems only or mainly so we can feel better and have things our own way; but in God's love we are on top of things

Tone · May 3, 2019

com7fy8 said:
Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. I personally understand that this spirit of evil . . . of selfishness . . . is an actual spiritual being. And this evil spirit of Satan works people to do what is evil.

When I read this, and other portions of your post, I couldn't help but think of the "One ring of power" (One Ring)...bear with me here:

"As it contained the better part of Sauron's native power, it seemed to exhibit a malevolent, but limited, form of sentience. While separated from Sauron, the Ring would strive to return to him, both by impelling its bearer to yield to Sauron or his servants, or by abandoning its possessor at key moments. The Ring had the ability to change size. As well as adapting to fingers of varying size, from Sauron's to Frodo's, it sometimes suddenly expanded to escape from its wearer. For example, it slipped off of Gollum's finger when the time was right for it to be brought back into the world at large. Sauron was also capable of sensing the location of the Ring if someone put it on for any extended period of time, even if that person was hundreds of miles away from him.

To fully master all of the Ring's abilities, a wielder of the Ring would need an extremely disciplined and well-trained mind, a strong will, and a high degree of spiritual development. Even for those with the necessary prerequisites it would have taken time to master the Ring's powers to the point at which they would be strong enough to overthrow Sauron, and, hypothetically, bring peace. While this is a tantalizing prospect for some, in the end, the Ring's inherent corruption would twist its bearer into another Dark Lord as evil as Sauron was, or worse, regardless of their intentions at the outset. This result was apparently inevitable no matter how well-intentioned the bearer, as even fellow Maiar like Gandalf feared to so much as possess the Ring lest its power begin to take hold."
One Ring

It's as if our flesh is the Ring, wherein the evil one has bound his "native power"...and this ring is ours to bear for now.

But when,

1 Corinthians 15
"52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'"

When this flesh (Ring) is finally destroyed, so to, will the enemy's power, bound up in it, be destroyed!

childeye 2 · May 3, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Except that isn't what the language in Genesis depicts. The darkness did not precede the light. The darkness was suppressing the light.

Then let me say it this way. Since God says let there be light, then darkness was there where the light wasn't or else he wouldn't have to say that. To me these are progressive steps of creating what is yet unfinished at this point. Hence if darkness was suppressing the light then He made it that way.

And the unregenerate remain entrapped in that darkness because they don't want the light of truth and the reason they don't want it is because they are dead in trespass and sin.

I agree they are held captive or entrapped by darkness, which they probably errantly perceive as freedom. Please forgive me for being a stickler for accuracy, but to be precise the scripture says that they don't come to the light because their deeds are evil and they do not want to be reproved. Hence this is Carnal vanity to not want to be corrected or receive instruction from God.

Again, a spiritual awakening is like unto as described in Genesis. Light breaks through the suppressing darkness because God supersedes this darkness.

I see a difference which is why I don't wish to conflate the two. The darkness in Genesis has no consciuosness, whereas people in the darkness of carnal vanity do.

The Righterzpen · May 3, 2019

childeye 2 said:
Then let me say it this way. Since God says let there be light, then darkness was there where the light wasn't or else he wouldn't have to say that. To me these are progressive steps of creating what is yet unfinished at this point. Hence if darkness was suppressing the light then He made it that way.
I agree they are held captive or entrapped by darkness, which they probably errantly perceive as freedom. Please forgive me for being a stickler for accuracy, but to be precise the scripture says that they don't come to the light because their deeds are evil and they do not want to be reproved. Hence this is Carnal vanity to not want to be corrected or receive instruction from God.
I see a difference which is why I don't wish to conflate the two. The darkness in Genesis has no consciuosness, whereas people in the darkness of carnal vanity do.

I agree with everything you say here except in Genesis the phrase "let there be light". "Let" here means "to allow". It isn't a "creative" term. It's like "let the dog out" or "let the car through". It's stating a command action of something that is already there.

The Righterzpen · May 3, 2019

com7fy8 said:
I will offer my opinion; I would say the Bible does not directly deal with this. A basic, though, that I am going by is in the Bible > our Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. I personally understand that this spirit of evil . . . of selfishness . . . is an actual spiritual being. And this evil spirit of Satan works people to do what is evil. It deeply degrades a person's nature so the person can sin and then so suffer after getting those no-no pleasures. This evil being is desperate to feel pleasure so it can feel nicer, but it ruins humans into suffering, in the process of seeking pleasure. So, humans are piggy-backing on Satan's problem.

Jesus says Satan's children have his desires > John 8:44. So, I can see how the lusts > desires with driving emotions > for pleasure are actually Satan's desires living in a person. And so I see how in sinful pleasure seeking and its resulting degradation, we can be piggy-backing on Satan's problem. We need to rest and ride in God's love and leading, instead, and "be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5).

I think we can see that evil consists of how ones are desperate for pleasure, taking control so they can get it, and reacting so badly when they don't get it.

And this evil spirit has dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure and revenge and reacting to not getting its own way. Satan is a conscious being, and his spirit's drives and misery and desperation are conscious in ones who obey his lusts which are dominating and dictatorial and bring people to disappointment and frustration.

But God is so perfectly good in love, so perfectly satisfied so He is not driven-so to seek to use physical things for pleasure. So, in Jesus we have such "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, included in evil is how Satan's spirit is spoiling people from enjoying the rest and caressing of God's love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

I personally think that Satan's evil spirit did predate creation. And my opinion is that God who is all-good could not have gotten Himself to come up with even the idea bringing the spirit of evil into existence. Nor could His "very good" creation of its own nature have brought sin and evil into existence, or even think of it. Therefore, I consider it possible that the spirit of evil has always existed. But it is not immortal in life of love, but merely existent but capable of being conscious in its horribleness. Only God is truly alive, in love.

So, in case my theo-logic is correct, there is a problem with what >

I can see that if there was a point in eternity when there was nothing but God all-good, there never could have been anything inferior. For God Himself could not have brought something inferior into existence. He would not have been able to even imagine any being less than He is, since at such a point He was all good.

But if there were inferior spiritual substances, He could have worked these for His creative purposes, even organizing the spirit of evil so it would not be just anywhere and everywhere, and plan a flaming sewer of fire and brimstone where He would put it, away from us who are His children.

Now, who would be the chief sewer bucket, then?

I have offered what would not agree with this. Possibly, you can see why. It was not only about opposite reacting. And God is almighty to easily and breezily and beautifully do all He pleases. Evil never has a chance against God.

We see, even, how God uses evil for His intentions. Look > consider . . . how Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers, yet God used that for His all-loving purpose > Genesis 37:50. And we see how the torture and murder of Jesus on Calvary has been used for such all-loving good, even for ones who have hated and rejected Christ but then have trusted in Him.

So, everything, actually, is cooperating with God Just don't be a sewer bucket > Ephesians 4:31-32 < of unforgiveness and bitterness and wrath and lusts. Or else, one will serve His purpose, but not by being conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

I have offered otherwise, how there is the actual conscious existing "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) So, evil is not only a reaction, or some sort of resistance, but conscious and sharing its horribleness and vanity inside humans.

Instead, we can be sharing with God, in His own love > Romans 5:5 > and how He personally rules each of us in our "hearts" with His own peace > Colossians 3:15.

By the way, evil is not only resistance against our living in God's love and joy and peace. But Satan and his spirit actively attack us, in order to degrade us into being controlled by those dominating and dictatorial lusts > "which war against the soul," our Apostle Peter says in 1 Peter 2:11. So, evil is not only resistance, but actively attacking us spiritually and emotionally and in our feelings. It is conscious >

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

"Be sober, be vigilant; for your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

All of us have experienced how we can be devoured by Satanic things of unforgiveness, bitterness, and lusts and nasty raging anger about not getting things we want.

So, evil is not only resistance or some sort of a drag.

By the way, "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. So, God is the One who is doing the resisting . . . but this is loving and caring so proud people do not keep going the wrong way all the way where Satan would take them in his pride of his wicked and nasty-reacting spirit.

But, also, God can use one evil to resist another. This can be what the LORD in Isaiah means where He says He "creates evil". He does not start or cause it, but He creatively manages it with His purpose to resist and deal with wrong people, in order to limit their self-destuctive stuff and how they would harm others. So, it is sort of like setting a backfire in order to keep a raging forest fire in check.

And it is like how humans have a system for taking sewage to where it belongs; but first Jesus wants to save whoever trusts in Him (Ephesians 1:12). So, the flaming sewer's feast is on hold, and evil is being kept here on earth for a while.

I will offer the knowledge is not the problem. But there is the evil spirit of Satan, who degraded Adam and Eve so they had a bad understanding of good and evil. They mainly were noticing their outward situation, then getting worried about being outwardly naked, which was not their real problem. Plus, deep inside themselves, in that evil spirit they could feel shame and fear and being spiritually vulnerable, and be ready to blame someone else. So, it was the evil spirit of Satan and how he is and sees things, being shared with them > including by accusing others, instead of first dealing with how he is so wrong. So, yes we can so share with Satan and how he does things. Evil, then, is not only some force, but personal and having us busy with accusing and blaming others . . . including so we do not seek our Heavenly Father for the correction which we ourselves so need . . . and only God is able to do in us > Hebrews 12:4-14.

So, yes, evil is very active and so clever.

So, it is important not to only depend on knowledge, but submit to how God rules us in His peace, so His peace enlightens and encourages us about what God has us knowing, and God makes us also creative to do what He has us doing about evil, sharing in how He even uses evil for His all-loving good, and is not about solving our troubles only so we can have the lives we want > part of what is evil is how we can try to solve our problems only or mainly so we can feel better and have things our own way; but in God's love we are on top of things

Have you read the entire OP?

com7fy8 · May 3, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Have you read the entire OP?

I read the first post, maybe not every point. And I answered with what I have been learning.

Tone · May 3, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Have you read the entire OP?

I think I'm the only one who's read the entire OP [pat on the back for me]!

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 3, 2019

martymonster said:
To save us from sin and death.

No Username Found said:
Why? What death are we being saved from and why does sin matter?

Just a poke to see if you had an answer.

martymonster · May 3, 2019

No Username Found said:
Just a poke to see if you had an answer.

I do, but can't be bothered.

The Righterzpen · May 3, 2019

com7fy8 said:
I will offer my opinion; I would say the Bible does not directly deal with this.

I think the language in the beginning of Genesis does address the issue. This is why I asked you if you read the entire OP. There's several Scripture verses that deal with this issue.

com7fy8 said:
I have offered what would not agree with this. Possibly, you can see why.

Well, you didn't really elaborate here and what you had written did not disagree with the premise in the theory. So, I'm not sure what you mean?

com7fy8 said:
I have offered otherwise, how there is the actual conscious existing "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience."

A distinction is made in the theory between:
1. instant when God commenced creating.
2. time Satan was created and time when he fell.
3. time carbon based life was created and time Adam fell.

I would not disagree with anything you've stated about disobedience as it relates to Satan or man.

com7fy8 said:
I will offer the knowledge is not the problem.

Yet if mere knowledge were not the problem for the creation, eating the fruit of the tree would not have had the impact it did. Obviously too, Satan's fall had profound consequences on him as a created entity.

com7fy8 said:
Therefore, I consider it possible that the spirit of evil has always existed.

Why do you think this is possible?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 3, 2019

martymonster said:
I do, but can't be bothered.

Understandable. We all have lives that are more important than an online forum. Take care.

childeye 2 · May 4, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Yet if the darkness is in rebellion of God, how is it serving His intention? It's not a "blank canvas" if it's actively suppressing God's action.

Okay, for this post I'm going to go ahead and conflate the darkness of Genesis with the darkness that is irreverent in ignorance of God's value, even though I don't believe they are the same thing.

The prodigal son. He is vain in his imagination and thinks he can do better for himself outside his Father's house. He has to learn a reverence for His Father by experiencing life outside his Father's house. The son leaves and after squandering his inheritance he realizes that things were pretty good in his Father's house. He then returns with humility and a new found reverence for his Father.

If we count this irreverence and vanity as the darkness, then of course it's possible that God in His foreknowledge knew that true worship would only come as a result of experiencing the slavery of sin. Those forgiven much love the Master more than those forgiven little. therefore the darkness you see as rebellion would in the end serve God's intention.

trophy33 · May 4, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I agree with everything you say here except in Genesis the phrase "let there be light". "Let" here means "to allow". It isn't a "creative" term. It's like "let the dog out" or "let the car through". It's stating a command action of something that is already there.

Let is in English, only. In Greek, it is: "genététó fós - kai egéneto fós"

Its something like "Be light - and light was."

The Righterzpen · May 4, 2019

childeye 2 said:
Okay, for this post I'm going to go ahead and conflate the darkness of Genesis with the darkness that is irreverent in ignorance of God's value, even though I don't believe they are the same thing.

The prodigal son. He is vain in his imagination and thinks he can do better for himself outside his Father's house. He has to learn a reverence for His Father by experiencing life outside his Father's house. The son leaves and after squandering his inheritance he realizes that things were pretty good in his Father's house. He then returns with humility and a new found reverence for his Father.

If we count this irreverence and vanity as the darkness, then of course it's possible that God in His foreknowledge knew that true worship would only come as a result of experiencing the slavery of sin. Those forgiven much love the Master more than those forgiven little. therefore the darkness you see as rebellion would in the end serve God's intention.

I would agree with you. The darkness in Genesis is not the same thing as ignorance. One has to have conscious thought to be ignorant of something. The darkness in Genesis does not appear to have conscious thought.

The creatures that fell, (Satan and then man) manifest the influences of this darkness by their willful disobedience as conscious cognizant entities.

I would agree with you too about the prodigal son story. That story though, does not illustrate what the theory is about.

The Righterzpen · May 4, 2019

myst33 said:
Let is in English, only. In Greek, it is: "genététó fós - kai egéneto fós"

Its something like "Be light - and light was."

It's not Greek, it's Hebrew. The phrase "let there be light" is in Genesis. (I'm guessing the translation you have there is from the Septuagint?)

It is still "in the ball park" that "be" is the verb translated "let". The verb actually means "fall out" or "come to pass". "Become", "been" and "have" are the most common translations of this Hebrew word. This word is not a "creative verb" it is a "permissive verb".

God is commanding the light to come forth from the darkness because the darkness seeks to suppress it.

childeye 2 · May 4, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I think you give Satan too much credit for being ignorant or "having his feelings hurt"; neither of which I think were true.

Respectfully, I have not said in any post that Satan's feelings were hurt. But I assure you he is ignorant in that he has no reverence for God. You can't expect me to believe that he was knowledgeable for not having reverence for God.

1 Timothy 2:14 says Adam was not deceived (but Eve was); so because Adam knew what he was doing was disobedience; that certainly implies he did it out of rebellion. Now what was going on in Adam's head? I don't think the Scripture ever tells us.

1 Timothy 2:14 is not implying that Adam rebelled. I study semantics and here's the problem with that assumption. The context in 1 Timothy is about who should have greater authority, the woman or the man. Your essentially saying that Paul is saying, that because Eve was the one who had to be tricked into disobeying God, and Adam was willfully in open rebellion against God, then the man should be in authority over the woman.

More likely Paul is saying that the man was not the one being spoken to by the serpent and therefore was not the one deceived. Moreover the bible says that Adam disobeyed because he followed the woman, which implies he probably knew better but he let the woman rule over him. I personally think that Eve ate first before he could stop her, and he was wondering why she wasn't dead while she was goading him to try it and have his eyes opened.

Note though when God confronts Adam; Adam's response is "The woman YOU gave me!" Look where he's putting the blame / passing the buck!

Maybe, maybe not. Respectfully we should be careful not to project out own vanity onto others.

I do agree, it is baffling to us on the other side of the fall to understand why the fall happened (at least in practical terms). If we'd say it was out of ignorance - if we conclude ignorance of what evil was - I'd agree with that!

Exactly, ignorant of what evil is and without any context to evaluate the good.

The Righterzpen · May 4, 2019

childeye 2 said:
Respectfully, I have not said in any post that Satan's feelings were hurt. But I assure you he is ignorant in that he has no reverence for God. You can't expect me to believe that he was knowledgeable for not having reverence for God.

Define "ignorance" and define "knowledge". Lacking reverence for God does not necessary equate to doing so out of ignorance. One is "ignorant" in the eyes of God when they do to know the command(s). Yet the wrath of God is revealed from heaven; so humanity is without excuse. So in actuality "ignorance" in that respect can't even be claimed. All entities capable of being held accountable for their transgression do not transgress out of "ignorance".

childeye 2 said:
1 Timothy 2:14 is not implying that Adam rebelled. I study semantics and here's the problem with that assumption. The context in 1 Timothy is about who should have greater authority, the woman or the man. Your essentially saying that Paul is saying, that because Eve was the one who had to be tricked into disobeying God, and Adam was willfully in open rebellion against God, then the man should be in authority over the woman.

More likely Paul is saying that the man was not the one being spoken to by the serpent and therefore was not the one deceived. Moreover the bible says that Adam disobeyed because he followed the woman, which implies he probably knew better but he let the woman rule over him. I personally think that Eve ate first before he could stop her, and he was wondering why she wasn't dead while she was goading him to try it and have his eyes opened.

Read the context of 1 Timothy 2:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

What Paul is actually saying is that because the woman was deceived; women are not to teach that they are the originators of the human race. This goes back to (I think it was the Asherah goddess cult is the cultural reference.) Note Paul makes this statement: Adam was first formed.... (The goddess cult had it the other way around.)

Also worth noting: back in Genesis, the statements made by God about Adam ruling over Eve; did not come about until after the fall!

childeye 2 said:
Maybe, maybe not. Respectfully we should not project out own vanity onto others.

Genesis 3:12 "And the man said, The woman whom thou gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Yes, Adam should not have "projected his own vanity" on to Eve; or God for that matter!

trophy33 · May 4, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
It's not Greek, it's Hebrew. The phrase "let there be light" is in Genesis. (I'm guessing the translation you have there is from the Septuagint?)

It is still "in the ball park" that "be" is the verb translated "let". The verb actually means "fall out" or "come to pass". "Become", "been" and "have" are the most common translations of this Hebrew word. This word is not a "creative verb" it is a "permissive verb".

God is commanding the light to come forth from the darkness because the darkness seeks to suppress it.

OK, but the problem with Hebrew is that the oldest Hebrew masoretic text is from 900 AD, its in no way close to the original text... Septuagint is much older.

Tone · May 4, 2019

Genesis 1
"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4And seeing that the light was good, God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”And there was evening, and there was morning— the first day."
Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness He called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

"confusion (n.)
c. 1300, confusioun, "overthrow, ruin," from Old French confusion "disorder, confusion, shame" (11c.) and directly from Latin confusionem (nominative confusio) "a mingling, mixing, blending; confusion, disorder," noun of action from past-participle stem of confundere "to pour together," also "to confuse" (see confound).

Meaning "act of mingling together two or more things or notions properly separate" is from mid-14c. Sense of "a putting to shame, perturbation of the mind" (a sort of mental "overthrow") is from c. 1400 in English, while that of "mental perplexity, state of having indistinct ideas" is from 1590s. Meaning "state of being mixed together," literally or figuratively, "a disorderly mingling" is from late 14c"
confusion | Origin and meaning of confusion by Online Etymology Dictionary

We know that the Creator willed for there to be "day", which consists of one evening and one morning...this He also calls "light". So, what is "night"...it doesn't appear to be evening and morning...is it just a stagnant, unchanging limbo?

Whatever the case, we know that the enemy came with his ideas to hinder the cycle of evening and morning. The enemy,for whatever reason, despises the day--perhaps he was/is most powerful in darkness and he resented this new move of the Creator, which took from his full splendor.

So then, his mission must be to undo the division of darkness from light and sowing his seed of confusion in the mind of the newborn children of light, was his first attempt at doing so. This confusion would mix the darkness with the light...a primordial fantasy realm versus a newly established cycle of life?

*Night is "darkness".

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