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Theory on the origin of evil

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At least you're honest.
So the bible lies when it says that God is all-good?
God IS LOVE. 1 John 4:8

So how does a loving God create evil?
What do you mean "without being guilty"?

The way I view it is, God created all the Angels, including Lucifer, and similar to the creation of man, endowed them with a will, not an autonomous will, but neither a morally perfect will, perfect as in immutable. So there was a freedom to turn, and for reason unknown, Lucifer the Prince of Angels turned and plotted against his Creator, a coo, and a third of the Angels followed him, and as a result were cast out of Heaven. I know this is a simple understanding, but I am content to leave it here. I think most (excluding the will discussion) of this is confirmed from prophecies in the book of Isaiah. The most difficult part which I do not understand is why, why did God knowingly create Lucifer and the Angels who would rebel? Did they really have a "chance" to do otherwise? If they did, they could have proved the knowledge of God to be false, and I'll let you follow the rabbit down that hole.
 
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Cis.jd

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Don't feel so badly....
This is the unanswerable question.
If God is all-good and omnipotent, why does evil exist?
I think man is actually more evil than the devil.. or has shown to be. When we start looking back in history, whether world history or just something as small as domestic history.. we've beaten Satan on it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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That would be the exception I mentioned, and there are very few if any other sins that work that way. Whether we do the act or only fantasize, one is deriving pleasure from it so that is sin, but again, that is one type sin that works that way out of a billion that do not. meaning the rule would be, not a sin until it's, well...sin. Or we don't sin until we've sinned. it is what it is when it becomes what it is, but not before.

So, evil's origin is when evil is evident, but the main point should be, it originates from us.
 
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eleos1954

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It's about love and freewill. God creates all His intelligent beings with freewill. True love requires choice. One can not force another to love another. Without freewill Gods' intelligent creatures would be nothing more that a bunch of robots.

The bible is quite clear ... war broke out in heaven. Therefore freewill in heaven as well.
When God created earth and His creations within ... it was untainted, perfect and without sin. Sin entered the world when satan and his minions were cast down to it. That removed sin out of heaven.

Revelation 12

7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 12

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Adam and Eve had freewill to either believe what God said ... they chose to disobey ... when they did the dominion (kingship of earth) that was originally given to Adam was forfeited to satan. Because of that choice ... they and all of their offspring (mankind) are born with a sinful nature (our natural tendencies being more toward sin). Sin corrupted the earth and everything in/on it.

Romans 8

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Did God know this was going to happen? Yes, the plan of salvation (redemption through Christ) was already put in place before God created anything on earth ... but again ... that redemption would be by choice.

Titus 1

This truth gives them confidence that they have eternal life, which God—who does not lie—promised them before the world began.

We still have the same choice(s) that Adam and Eve had today.

Believe and serve Jesus/God or not. Accept and follow Jesus and be changed and redeemed (receive eternal life) through Him ... or not.

Joshua 24

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve ...

Even so ... come Lord Jesus. Amen
 
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Tone

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Yeah it's like the "Nothing" of The NeverEnding Story (film) - Wikipedia.

It works (or unworks) against whatever/whoever sustains creation.

It is, perhaps, a mental construct or category of things, but that still does not qualify it as "thing". Mental constructs or thoughts are things, but what those thoughts are about may not be things.

But when spoken, as lies, they do steal, kill, and destroy things.

*Lies steal time, stealing is just stealing, and killing steals life...
 
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The Righterzpen

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I don't have the time or inclination to read the short book that is the O.P. and I seriously doubt that many have done so.

He who answers a matter before he hears it out - it is a folly and a shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13


Reason would have it that if the heavens and earth are "finished" as is declared in Genesis - this would include the "3rd heaven". At the point the 2nd person of the Trinity was incarnated, that brought the "created thing" into God's personal existence. And so thus from now into all eternity, part of the created is a permeant part of God's being. Thus the need to "create" a 3rd heaven to "accommodate" God Himself.


Part of the omniscience of God, obviously would be knowledge of the laws of physics. Yet until God "creates" something - those laws are theory only (just as evil is theory only until something is created). The presence of "darkness" existed while the earth was still without form and void. Is "darkness" the same thing as "evil" or are they defined by "cause" and "manifestation"? "Evil" is a manifestation of "darkness" enacted upon the physical world once a creature disobeys.

I can't buy into your idea that "physics" (which concern the "physical universe") have any bearing on the non physical origin of evil.

"Physics" in a physical universe become reality as soon as God "does" something. They (like evil) are a byproduct of God's action.

Evil did not predate creation. It apparently predated the creation of this universe. But it did not predate all of creation since that would make evil an attribute of God and we know that cannot be.

Agreed. Yet the creation of this universe was indeed God's "initial go around". There was not another universe that predated this one. (Which I think you would agree with.)

Good - then we are OK on that - if you mean before the creation of the physical universe.

But if you mean before any creation at all - I will disagree with you on that.

We are in agreement here.


Agreed.

While the Holy Spirit is a bit more mysterious - although He is also a "person" - I believe He is the "by product" of this mutual "love" which encompasses the entire nature of God.

If God is Triune - the Holy Ghost can not be a "by product" because He is eternally existence just as the Father and Son are. If He were a "by product" of "mutual love" than He would be "created" by the "action" of mutual love. Love is an attribute of God's being, not something He does.


Agreed.

One of those attributes is His inherent "knowledge of good and evil". That is - not evil itself but the "knowledge" of evil as well as good. Evil - is any rebellion against God's perfect will.

Good "working definition" of evil!


Agreed. God conquered evil as part of the salvation plan.

IMO - God (being omniscient) knew full well the consequences of creating Satan and the rest of the angels as well as mankind with the ability to make "free will" choices.

Agreed. He would not have been omniscient and consequently, not God if He didn't.


Theoretically I can see this would be true even outside of the initial action of creating. Yet beyond knowledge bestowed to us as created entities God is unknowable. Therefore we have no idea (and never will) what being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal living in glory with two other entities who are of the fullness of what ever God is - would be like.

That knowledge is above our pay grades. LOL


Agreed.


The deeds believers perform were preordained from the foundations of the world because they are the works of God. Anyone who assigns a portion of this unto his own will for the sake of getting a reward, at the very least misunderstands the power of God's sovereignty. For in the end the crowns (rewards) are cast back at His feet for the understanding that is was by His power these works were accomplished to begin with.

As painful as this life is for any of us; our liking or disliking of the role played, really has no bearing on the plan. The disposition of the believer ultimately accepts that. This is not fatalism though, because the acceptance of the will is born out of love and gratitude for redemption we know we don't deserve.
 
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Tone

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Can you expound on this verse? I read that, yes, vessels have been prepared for destruction, but it is not clear, by who. I also see vessels of mercy, which are specifically said to be prepared by Him, for glory.
 
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The Righterzpen

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It's about love and freewill. God creates all His intelligent beings with freewill. True love requires choice. One can not force another to love another. Without freewill Gods' intelligent creatures would be nothing more that a bunch of robots.

You misunderstand election, predestination and what Calvin coined as "total depravity", "irresistible grace" and "perseverance of the saints".


Everything God created bore the potential to be corrupted and therefore is not "perfect" as to being incorruptible. The only created entity that was "perfect" was Jesus Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven just before Jesus commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." This followed upon the last day (Tuesday before the cross) that He preached in the temple. John 12:31


And thus is the reason you no longer have a "free will". You're will does not act independent of your fallen nature or your sin.

In reality, Jesus was the only human who ever fully had a free will; because His will was directed by the Divine aspect of His personhood. Adam's will was only "probationally free"; because he was not incorruptible.

Did God know this was going to happen? Yes, the plan of salvation (redemption through Christ) was already put in place before God created anything on earth ... but again ... that redemption would be by choice.

Only by the choice of Christ. He did not have to redeem any of us.

We still have the same choice(s) that Adam and Eve had today.

Believe and serve Jesus/God or not. Accept and follow Jesus and be changed and redeemed (receive eternal life) through Him ... or not.

One of the consequences of Adam's disobedience was the severance of human probational fellowship with God. Thus is why we are dead in trespass and sin with no hope of making ourselves spiritually alive. That is solely a Divine act of God.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Look at posts # 176 and 177. What this verse means was already addressed.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I think the simple answer to your question is obviously Satan is not omniscient.

Did Satan know when he made the decision to transgress, what that would do to him? (That it would make him unable from that point on to do any good.) Reason would have it that the answer to that question would be yes; because Adam knew.

Now Adam knew there were serious consequences to transgressing, yet I don't think Adam fully knew the result those consequences would bring about. Adam had no point of reference to know what death was.

Now angels are not created in God's image so therefore do not have the capacity to be redeemed. Yet we can see in Scripture from what Satan says and does that he understands the redemption plan better than we do.

So assuming Satan had that knowledge before the fall; (which is a Scripturally valid assumption) the onus is totally on him! He's not the hapless soldier in the battle that makes a mistake. He's the general with the full knowledge of the battle plan that commits treason! I don't feel sorry for Satan at all! LOL What he did is the epitome of cowardice!

Now Satan not having the omniscience, or omnipotence of God, apparently didn't "know" the power wherewith the darkness that Satan as a created entity existed in. This is despite the fact that Satan knows (intellectually speaking) that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal when Satan is not.

Now for what ever reason (the actual reason being "evil") this made Satan angry and jealous of God - and pride is the crux of why Satan chose to disobey.

Now if Satan hadn't disobeyed, the process by wherewith God would ultimately vanquish that evil would have not been set in motion (at least yet). The very nature of the corruptibility of the creation made disobedience inevitable. And of course God knew this because He's omniscient!

So why'd God do it? Because all of this it to His glory. He demonstrates to us His created entities His love through this plan.

It really is a genius plan - BOSS!

Ya follow me?
 
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Tone

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Which is why He says:

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

Below, is from a couple of other threads that I believe lends to the idea of a captive will and its relation to illusion (darkness):

On the futility of evidence-based apologetics

I think these posts from another thread fit in with the above:




The light shows that our weapons are, but, the illusion of freewill...we see that our wills are captive...as more is revealed...freedom is gained.



*From Darkness and light and man’s nature
 
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childeye 2

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Only problem with this, is that a creation that doesn't exist yet, can not be ignorant of its Creator. Knowledge requires a conscience and in relation to the created entity; it needs some form of substance to have a conscience.
Respectfully, you are forgetting that there indeed is a consciousness of creation in heaven known as angels. Scripture indicates that angels sang and shouted the day the earth was created. Also evil began in heaven with Lucifer, a son of the morning, and where vainglory first manifests in the creation.
I have no idea what you mean by this statement.
This statement is to state what God's manifold purpose for the creation is from the beginning to the end, so as to see a big picture of the creation that includes all dispensation of time and times as a means to an end.

Again, you need a created thing with a consciousness before it actually has the capacity to be unthankful. So this can not answer the issue raised by the language in Genesis.
Again, the angels are created things with the capacity to become unthankful.
This verse means that the creation itself is not what caused itself to be subject to death. Man's transgression did that. "
Respectfully, the verse says the creation was made subject to vanity (Void of Truth/knowledge of God). Man's transgression was prompted by Satan's cunning lie which appealed to vanity and subtly introduced a false and corrupt image of god.
 
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DamianWarS

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it has every bit of bearing on the text. What was written or spoken 3500 years ago to an Israelite audience had a purpose and meaning and this meaning is important when understanding it today, this is called a good exegesis. How we apply the text is abstract and from HS inspiration but that's not necessarily the meaning of the text which remains the same as it did 3500 years ago, especially when we are talking about between the line assertions.

To start "beginning" is a translated word so if you want to grasp the true meaning you would have to study ancient Hebrew and with that study must come a firm grasp on how these words were understood. "beginning" is a good translation because English is a very abstract language and it does not read well when it's just full of strict concretes like "at the summit God fatten the skies and the land" this doesn't make sense to use because we don't think this way so it would be fruitless and confusing. But if we are to enter into the unwritten thoughts of the account we must enter into the written thoughts first and give them high value, not our superimposed abstract ideas.

You gloss over words that have clear contrasts in the text such as the difference between the speaking into being, separating and organizing in the first 3 days and the latter 3 days using a different word to envoke a filling up of the things in the first 3 days. By doing this you miss the parallels in the text between day 1 and 4, day 2 and 5 and day 3 and 6 and miss the focus.

The Ancient Hebrew mind reasoned in something called block logic, where thoughts are arranged in blocks and may actually conflict other blocks or other ideas. in Hebrew block logic two thoughts may be held at the same time that opposes each other yet both are true. These accounts are written with a purpose in mind and this is what the blocks of information are geared toward and agree with and to understand them we must first understand the goal.

Western thinkers think in step logic where each thought progresses to the next until a conclusion is made without conflicts. You seem to be superimposing your western thinking over the creation account looking at day 1 leading to day 2 leading to day 3... but this is not how the account is actually written.

Each day is a block of information and together they all point to the same goal and this is what they agree on but this goal doesn't care how it disagrees with scientific thought because that's not the point of the text. For example, day 1 light is made and day 4 the sun and all celestial objects are created. This doesn't make sense if we demand the text to reconcile itself with western step logic. How these events actually unfolded is not the purpose of the text, the purpose of the text to establishing a monotheistic God over all things using a contextualized account but in a manner that is highly prophetic as well. Each word is very intentionally crafted. The text shows us there was a preexistent formless universe in chaos and darkness that God brought light into, organized, reshaped and filled it up with life then established his rest over this creation and this itself is a great metaphor to the spiritual change of life in Christ in the Christian.

Who created the formless universe or the darkness? Well the text doesn't address this but that's not the point of the text. You're trying to force something in the text to reconcile it to fit your abstract step logic world view by saying "the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared." (very step logic based) this may very well be true but this has nothing to do with the text. The text is not about how the darkness came, there simply was darkness and God spoke light into it. This points to not only creation through God but salvation through God as well because he still speaks light into the darkness today in all believers.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The desire for pleasure isn't sin. Failure to glorify God in the pursuit of pleasure by transgression, is what sin is. And this is why sin in born in the heart before it ever becomes manifest in the real world. The chief end of man is to glorify God; so what ever isn't of faith is sin. And this is why if you bring a temptation to God for His assistance, He honored that because you seek to glorify Him.

Jesus did this and this is how he (in human nature) overcame temptation. This is why He says to Satan "You shall worship God alone!" Now Jesus had a particular advantage that we don't in that He had a Divine nature; but the unique manner in which Christ was created does not absolve us of our guilt when we do disobey.

Now "evil" as it pertains to our personal sin does manifest from our own hearts. Yet "evil" (or maybe rather "darkness") preexisted our existence.

Follow me here?
 
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childeye 2

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Yeah it's like the "Nothing" of The NeverEnding Story (film) - Wikipedia.

It works (or unworks) against whatever/whoever sustains creation.



But when spoken, as lies, they do steal, kill, and destroy things.
If I may point out concerning this issue about what sustains all things and what tears down, that all things were built upon faith.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The Righterzpen

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That's DEEP!

Thanks for the link!
 
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Tone

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If I may point out concerning this issue about what sustains all things and what tears down, that all things were built upon faith.

Will you elaborate?
 
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