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Theory on the origin of evil

The Righterzpen

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I agree. God is a Spirit. If He were to step off a curb in the path of an oncoming car, the car would pass right through.

The nature of what God is as an entity can not be confused with His knowledge and that's basically what the theory is addressing.

Was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed brought from knowledge to reality by the act of creating something? Is it the reaction to God's action? If that is the case than this does not make God "subject to this law of physics" because the laws of physics are also only theory until there is an action.

You follow me?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I agree that the choice to transgress does; doesn't answer the beginning of Genesis though that talks about "darkness upon the face of the deep".... etc. That seems to indicate that evil exists outside of the creatures' choice to partake in it.

Isn't the transgression the actual evil?
 
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DamianWarS

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a "beginning" is an abstract concept, something that ancient Hebrew is not good at doing. "create" is also an abstract concept. beginning more concretely is "at the head" and create is actually concretely is about "filling" or "shaping" and even more concretely "fattening"

This is also consistent with the days of creation, you will notice days 1-3 God does not create but he speaks "let there be..." often by separating that which is already there. In days 4-6 God has finished these base layers (days 1-3) now he fills them up or shapes them (create) in days 4-6. Compare the days and you will notice a pattern in days 1 & 4, days 2 & 5 and days 3 & 6 go together. For example, did you ever wonder why God spoke light on day 1 but created the sun on day 4? Perhaps this arrangement has a different order than that which can be reconciled with a strict timeline.

When the text is read concretely what it suggests is that the heavens and the earth predate this account which is affirmed in v2 saying the earth was formless and void. other translations (NIV) actually say it was empty. So if "create" has a concrete meaning (ancient Hebrew) of filling or shaping then read the passage again keeping this in mind how this "create" word in a concrete context is used contrasting the "formless and empty" state of the land and see they are essentially opposites.

What verse 2 shows us is a universe existing in chaos and what the preceding days 1-3 show are gathering this chaos and organizing it, then days 4-6 show filling these spaces with life and this is the account that verse 1 describes and saying, in the beginning, God organized the chaos and filled it up.... but the "chaos" seems to have been pre-existent of this account.

The text also shows us that God speaks light into being then he separates the light from the darkness. The darkness was preexistent and God does not speak it into being. He also makes sure it is distinct from the light by separating it and he calls the light good, implicitly calling the darkness "not good".

These are metaphors for good and evil and even for the incarnate Word of God. Col. 1:15 tells us Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and that everything is created through him. The days 1 light appears to be the first example of at the very least an image of God as he is true light and Jesus is called the light of the world. Could the light be the incarnate Word penetrating darkness, separating and overpower it? It certainly points to Christ but when we read it like this we are shedding off this silly strict timeline and demand for it to be scientifically reconciled and read it knowing the creation account is prophetic, it points to Christ and has more important things it's focused around.

I would think the account shows us whatever "darkness" is, it is a part of this chaos and unformed void of the universe which is the backdrop of the account and already established before v1.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I added the above^.

His Holy One did not see corruption...He Who we are to be One with, therefore, what has seen corruption?

Jesus was fundamentally different than any other human being, because He had a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature. Adam on the other hand was created in God's (Jesus's) image. The second person of the Trinity, in turn was incarnated in the likeness of Adam to accomplish what Adam could not because of the temporal nature of how he was created. This is why Adam was corruptible to begin with.

Now could Jesus have transgressed? the answer to that is both "yes" and "no". He could have chose to transgress because He was human, but also He could not transgress because he was also God. The Divine nature made him incorruptible as a created entity. Kind of hard to wrap our brains around - I know!

If Jesus had sinned in His humanity, that would have meant instantaneous death; (as well as instantaneous destruction for the rest of us) because the Divine nature could not remain attached to the human nature. And the Divine nature being God can not die. So although Jesus the human would be destroyed, the Divine nature would just return back to God.

Now there have been two arguments presented about this.

1. If Jesus could sin, than He still can sin
2. If Jesus couldn't sin than He was other than human and the temptations meant nothing to Him and He really can't relate to us.

Both these arguments miss something very important.

1. Jesus can not sin now because post ascension into heaven; He is glorified and as King His "created" nature is now different than it was when He walked the earth.

2. So since Jesus could have sinned in the flesh, the temptations were real and He can relate.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Isn't the transgression the actual evil?

No, the transgression is the manifestation of what's in the heart playing out in the material world. Sin in the heart is an internal attitude before it is an external event.
 
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The Righterzpen

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"Beginning" is not so abstract that it didn't have a concrete point of origin; in that before the beginning was nothing and after the beginning was something.

The same thing can be said for "create". It doesn't matter if God "spoke it", "thought it", "molded it" or stood on His head and sang "The long and winding road" backwards. It still went from not being there to being there.

As far as "time line" goes; when God separated the day from the night; that was the setting up of "time". Time as we experience it is a linear thing that only goes one direction. An omnipotent Creator does not need thousands of years to make something. "Theistic evolution" doesn't work because you don't have death until you have transgression and in order to have evolution, you have to have death.


You are correct that "something" was in the "formless and void" before matter (made up of atomic structures) "materialized". But just because you would not be able to "see" what's there, does not mean a creative process isn't happening.


Yes, that "chaos" (obviously some manifestation of entropy), is a result of the presence of "evil". Note God is doing things to bring order and because He's God he has the ability to bring that order. The "chaos" can't do it. This is why "the big bang" would never happen. Entropy is counteracted by God "creating".


Yes, also correct. God did not have to "make" the darkness because (as of my theory) it came about as a byproduct of the commencement of His creative action.


Colossians states that Jesus is the first born from the dead. Not that he's the first created entity. Revelation says that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So what that means is outside of time; Jesus "rose from the dead" before creation ever started. He is the entity by whom and for whom all things were created.

The "metaphor" you present of Jesus being the "light of the world" is clearly there in Genesis. But that should not surprise us because this is how the creation was set up. It testifies to God and His plan.

Hard for us to wrap our brains around, I know; but picture the created universe in a sphere that is encased in a "space" (called eternity) that has no boundaries. Now God as the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal and immortal Creator has the ability to insert Himself into the universe at any point of time and place He desires. This is how Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world, because the atonement took place outside of time as well as inside of time.

I would think the account shows us whatever "darkness" is, it is a part of this chaos and unformed void of the universe which is the backdrop of the account and already established before v1.

Agreed!
 
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Sanoy

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Well the water is choice. Before God created beings with free will there was just God and He can only act according to his nature.

I believe that in an exorcism there is a being, and that beings nature is evil. A blue flower doesn't actually have the characteristic of being blue, blue is something we experience when we are in contact with a blue flower. So the evil presence is something we experience when we are in contact with something of an evil nature. I don't mean to suggest it is as trivial as color, it could also be an emanation.
 
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Kenny'sID

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No, the transgression is the manifestation of what's in the heart playing out in the material world. Sin in the heart is an internal attitude before it is an external event.

But is it a sin before it plays out? You sound like you are stating that as a fact, are you?

With a few exceptions , I was always under the impression it wasn't sin until we actually did the deed/sin. I mean if our process of deciding not to do the deed were counted against us as the deed it self, it seems to me, it wouldn't be fair.
 
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DamianWarS

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Well at least we agree on something. You seem to be approaching the text based on a very abstract world view, may I suggest we approach it first based on the context it would have been received. If you can't uniquely smell, taste, see, feel, or hear it, then it is an abstract. The Hebrew word translated as "beginning" is actually developed from a word for summit as in the top of the mountain is the first to come fourth. A summit of a mountain is a concrete, at the very least you can see and touch it but you cannot uniquely see a beginning, or feel it, touch it, see it or smell it. A beginning is an indeed an abstract.
 
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GodsGrace101

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"In the beginning God...." and "In the beginning was God..." Nothing existed but God before God created anything. This is how I know evil did not predate creation.
Are you saying evil appeared when God created earth and man?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Flaws galore.
If God is all-good,,,,how does He have evil in Him to think about?

If God thinks something...does it happen?

You're getting your theology into the discussion...
We know God is sovereign and will do what He wishes to do. Also you have free will in quotation marks so you theology is coming through even there.

So if God knew the consequences,,WHY did He create these beings (us) who would have to suffer so much?

We all know God is sovereign -- not just you ---
but is He also a wicked and mean God?
Most of us would say NO.
God IS LOVE.
God IS MERCIFUL.
God IS JUST.
God IS HOLY.

I don't know any theology that teaches God is ONLY a just God with little concern for His beings...except one.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Don't feel so badly....
This is the unanswerable question.
If God is all-good and omnipotent, why does evil exist?
 
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GodsGrace101

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God created good and evil because he defined what is good and what is evil.
The N.T. says that in God there is no evil.
God is all-good.
God is Holy.

There is no evil in God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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That's not the description of dualism....
Dualism means there's
a good god and a bad god.
 
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Zachm531

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Yeah that makes sense for sure. But i guess this is where you start going into predestination vs foreknowledge vs compatibility. Because on the one hand if the Lord didnt havs a Satan figure pre planned in his creation, the entire Bible would be different. Satan has a specific role that he needs to fill in order for the Bible to end the way it does. Because it is very clear that the new jeruselam, new eartt, His uktinate kingdom is not just foreknown but, planned.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Depends on one's motivation. If you're struggling with something not to do it - you don't carry through on the thought - God honors that if you earnestly seek Him to help you turn. He will help you.

Yet if you justify your thoughts that are amiss saying "oh, well they aren't actions" - that's the wrong attitude.

For example: Jesus says anyone who looks upon a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. So for example to say - Oh I can look at porn and fantasize all I want, so long as I don't commit the act. That's sin because the attitude is amiss from the get go.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes, you are correct. How this works out in "real time" is a mystery to us because choices we make are still independent of "programed response". You've still independently picked out what clothing you put on this morning, what college you attended, who you married, whether or not you went to the grocery store today etc.

God does interact in "real time" to accomplish His purposes and He can do that because He's omniscient. How He does it, we're probably never going to figure out.

The ability to have independent volition to make choices in this life is a different issue than the concept of "free will" as it applies to "choosing" God. Our will isn't "free" because it's encumbered by both our own sin as well as the fall. We are corruptible / corrupted creatures living in a corrupted universe.

So, in the realm of belief, we don't "believe" unless God enacts upon us first. Belief / faith requires a supernatural opening of the understanding, changing of the heart, changing of the will, which leads to repentance and believing and walking in faith, etc.

And who becomes believers was preordained before creation ever began. How God chose who would be redeemed - none of us got the foggiest clue. All we know is that was not determined by anything we did or did not do.
 
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The Righterzpen

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How some Israelite in the wilderness 3500 years ago, hearing this read to them would have "received it" has no bearing on us in the current.

For those God redeems, there will always be some ambiguity or "abstraction" of our understanding. God's "word" (the word made flesh, the logos, the written revelation); all of that as God applies it to us, is a living "thing" and what ever understanding we have of it comes from the Holy Ghost anyways.

In this sense it will always be "abstract" because it's not confined to culture or time. Humanly speaking, an American who studies this will have a variant of take on it than a Japanese person who studies it, because they come from very different cultures. That doesn't matter to God though because the foundation of truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to both, is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Both the American and the Japanese person are going to say: "Oh I get it because of.... " and the "because of" is going to be a different set of influences for each of them, both coming from different cultures and their own personal experience. The Holy Spirit reaches across time, culture and language to bring truth to God's elect.

The cultural historical information the Scripture was written from can be useful and is certainly interesting; but that is not what saves us. And none of us, regardless of how well we know the ancient history or culture knows the whole of truth and God honors the humility to admit that.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Are you saying evil appeared when God created earth and man?

From what ever point the "beginning" of what God did - "commenced" - "evil" came from the point of "theoretical knowledge" into reality. This was a reaction to what God "did", but not to what God "is". Do you see the difference?

God as the Creator is far more subtenant than the "evil" that came about as a reaction to His action. This is why this is not "duelist" because the "forces" are not equal. Evil's influence is confined to the corruptible creation and this is why God conquered it. He is greater than all.

And from the language in Genesis, this happened before the earth was "formed" and "un-void".

You follow me?
 
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Ken C.

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Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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