Kevin Snow
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There is the phenomenon called spiritual concurrences. This is what you are describing.
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There is the phenomenon called spiritual concurrences. This is what you are describing.Thanks for your thoughts. What about the idea that Domitian was the resurrected Nero (in the form that he behaved the same way and that there were pagan authors that referred to him as such) (see the catholic encyclopedia article)
So I'm not a preterist (since I believe these things are still being fulfilled) but I was curious what you thought of these arguments that they were also fulfilled at that time. I suspect Dual fulfillment is the correct way to interpret prophecy, see this answer: What are the major variations of the "double-fulfillment" hermeneutic? also this: Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia
2 Thessalonians 2:1-9: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution
- Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus records this event: “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole in explicit fulfillment of Revelation 13:14: “He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.” And since Titus was also granted the title Caesar at Vespasian’s coronation, Titus could also be said to be a living, breathing image of his father just as man is the image of God (Genesis 1:26) and Jesus is the image of the Father (Colossians 1:15). Titus is also the “mouth” of Vespasian just as Aaron was the mouth of Moses (Exodus 4:16). Thus when Titus was worshiped beside the images of himself and Vespasian on the numina legionum (meaning “gods of the legions”), Vespasian, Titus’ father and emperor, could also have been said to have been worshiped through Titus who was the mouth and image of his father.
"When Vespasian acquired the title Caesar, both of his sons, Titus and Domitian, also inherited the title concurrently (three-in-one trinity?). And just as Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, Titus was likewise the firstborn son of Vespasian. Thus I believe that Caesar Titus, the firstborn son of Caesar Vespasian is the image of the beast, Rome and his father, in the same way that Jesus, the firstborn Son of God, is the image of His Heavenly Father (Colossians 1:15). The idea that Caesar Titus is the image of the beast, the emperor Vespasian and his kingdom, is also implied by the fact that Titus and his father, the emperor, shared the same blended nickname or cognomen, Titus Flavius Vespasianus."
2 Thessalonians 2:1-9: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution
Now about going through all the cities of Israel, it is said that the Holy Spirit has been moving west all across the earth, which is why the Holy Spirit did not permit them to go east when they tried but were instead called to go into Macedonia. It is with the full return all around the world of the evangelism of the gospel message and then back again to Israel. In this way, on the second return to Israel from God's presence it will be that we will not have gone through all the cities of Israel. Either way, scripture cannot be broken.
Seventh, I think this is interesting and this certainly could be part of the final fulfillment. However, I think Colossians 1:23 suggests it already had to be fulfilled. Even if they were refering to the Roman empire with universal language like they did before (Ceasar calling a census of the "whole word") this would also refer to Israel. Also this is one of the things that is said to happen in this generation, it even says that after this the "end will come": 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.""Now about going through all the cities of Israel, it is said that the Holy Spirit has been moving west all across the earth, which is why the Holy Spirit did not permit them to go east when they tried but were instead called to go into Macedonia. It is with the full return all around the world of the evangelism of the gospel message and then back again to Israel."
You've got too many ideas for one. Try to stick to establishing one thing. We learn one thing at a time.Ok cool. I just wanted to understand your opinion before I presented my evidence.
First I think dual fulfillment is the proper way to understand prophecy as might see with these examples: What are the major variations of the "double-fulfillment" hermeneutic? also this: Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia
Second, I suspect the coming of the kingdom was fulfilled at that time: (Edit: with the Church in Acts) Taking Luke 14:33 literally starting at "Here's something from a document on this using YLT (which uses "reign" instead of kingdom)"
Third I suspect the coming of the son of man fulfilled then (see previous link) also see: https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
Fourth, I don't think there is any good evidence that "generation" would naturally be taken as refering to all humanity in the context: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Fifth I think saying "some standing here won't taste death till they see the kingdom" is a bit anti-climactic if it refers to just a vision. (Also strange to say that about Stephen being literally killed with rocks) Also this seems to contradict the context:
27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
28“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matt 16 NASB)
38“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
1And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.” (Mark 8 NASB)
26“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27“But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9 NASB)
Sixth, I also suspect the man of lawlessness happenend then. Josephus refers to the zealots as lawless and one of their leaders was the son of the priest who struck Paul (against the law)
http://lastdayspast.com/wp-content/...tion-of-Desolation-Lawlessness-Ed-Stevens.pdf
I think this is interesting and this certainly could be part of the final fulfillment. However, I think Colossians 1:23 suggests it already had to be fulfilled. Even if they were refering to the Roman empire with universal language like they did before (Ceasar calling a census of the "whole word") this would also refer to Israel. Also this is one of the things that is said to happen in this generation, it even says that after this the "end will come": 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
. . .
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(Matt 24 NASB)
Also Jesus predicts that the apostles themselves will go through all the cities, so it had to have been fulfilled then:
He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” (Acts 1 NASB)
Anyways, I hope that explains my views. (as of right now) Would really like to hear your disproofs/responses.
Ok I made the last part point seven. I think that's the strongest point so you can start with that if you have any disagreements. Otherwise you can pick whichever one you want.You've got too many ideas for one. Try to stick to establishing one thing. We learn one thing at a time.
Next, you're ideas and mode of understanding scripture is unsubstantiated in scripture. Dual fulfillment is not in scripture.
I keep telling people about spiritual concurrences and it doesn't seem to be understood but this is all that is happening.
Ok I made the last part point seven. I think that's the strongest point so you can start with that if you have any disagreements. Otherwise you can pick whichever one you want.
EDIT: unfortunately no-one is specifically disagreeing with any parts of the theory I presented on "mark head hand affixed" except to say that the number of the beast is something that you cannot calculate. I do want to get back to this incalculability later though. For now I'm fine with talking about the eschatology surrounding this since no-one has presented something more relevant.
That's kind of what I'm pointing out to you. Your treatment of the scripture is mechanical. This isn't Walmart where we take our pick of the latest theories confangling the concepts of scripture.
We are to be reverent, solemn and SLOW to think anything. Our purpose should be before God as we work to understand the things which God has given us to know the times we live in as a service of priesthood to him, not a scientist.
The scripture does call the one with wisdom to "count" or in some sense calculate the number for it is the number of man. The counting of the number is fundamental and will explain why this number represents man and what that means for man.
Maybe I'm a robot in disguiseCompare the following in the interlinear:
Matthew 11:15 Interlinear: he who is having ears to hear -- let him hear.
Revelation 13:18 Interlinear: Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number is six hundred and sixty six.
Do you think Matt 11:15 was saying there was only one person with ears that would be able to hear? The construct is the same "ὁ ἔχων" no? (if that is what you are saying)
EDIT: If it's just about making sure you have wisdom, I should point out that I got my theory on the number from someone else . . . so maybe he has wisdom . . . since you obviously think I do not.
Everyone must continue to entrust themselves to God as they learn. It's not to say that you have no wisdom but that there is a higher way. Your treatment of the scriptures lack the qualities I previously described and would help you in your understanding of them.
But why do you want to understand these things? Your reason is ultimately what will hold you back from understanding them.
Next, I see from the interlinear that there is also a call for whoever has the understanding to count the number. You can think what you will but we all come before God individually. We are not saved as a congregation but as it says,
Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. ~Jeremiah 3:14
So its the NATURE of the call which you are missing. The nature of us being saved is on an individual basis and so the nature of this number being counted is also individual. The people will not do it together.
No doubt you are the people, and wisdom will die with you. ~Job 12:2
EDIT: I'm not saying this scripture applies to you but I am only pointing out to you the principle that the people do not make any progress with or in wisdom but only digress.
Not at all. Did you read the context of the situation? She goes and becomes another man's wife. So
Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. ~Luke 16:18
The truth is already shown. Stop arguing it with words. The commitment IS the sexual union:
Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. ~Malachi 2:15
It has always been this way since the beginning of time and still is today. The only difference with today is that people don't recognize the present moment as much as they did yesterday. But because you don't perceive reality well doesn't change reality.
Look dude, I'm sure you've heard but the kingdom of God does not consist of talk but of power. So when it says in Micah that God put a portion of the Spirit in their union, this unequivocally means that the sexual intercourse IS marriage. The fact that the father can refuse is ALSO because of our hardness of heart as Christ said. You're just interpreting these things as if it was a computer code instruction but not understanding the power/hierarchy of what is being spoken. Did you ever stop to consider WHY there is a greatest commandment and then one LIKE it? It's because of the power involved in the word of God. So you are so far, interpreting everything while being completely oblivious of this reality, which is why you are wrong. The same thing Christ said to the Sadducees, I am saying to you:
Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? ~Mark 12:24
This is why I said you're just arguing with words and not the real meaning of them.
Alright, we know that scripture cannot be broken right? So if you get a partial fulfillment of scripture then you did not get what that scripture is actually pointing to. Partial fulfillments of scripture are what I call spiritual concurrences. They happen all the time. Napoleon Bonaparte also had elements of fulfilling antichrist agendas.
The problem is when you start to stretch the word of God to make out a partial fulfillment to somehow be the real fulfillment. But ultimately you need EVERY single element of the prophecy to be true in order to say that this scripture was fulfilled. Otherwise it was just an occurrence of a spiritual concurrence.
So in the case of Nero, we see that he destroyed the entire temple; did not leave one stone upon another. And this is what Christ said would happen because they did not understand that he was the Christ. (Luke 19:44)
BUT, what is the nature of the actual antichrist? In revelations all that the antichrist takes is the outer courts of the sanctuary and he does NOT destroy the temple. NO, in fact the antichrist needs the temple in order to set up the abomination that makes desolate. So Nero is an antichrist figure but not the antichrist.
Let's move on from all that.
Now we are concerned with actually calculating the number of the beast. It calls the one with wisdom to do this. So guess what? A bunch of people will NOT calculate it. ONLY the one who has been called to do it will do it.
So let's move on from that as well.
Because, how would you even understand how to calculate a single number? There are many calculations but all of them have an equivalence to something that we balance out. But here, we are given only a number and the nature of the thing it represents: the fact that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.
Through these two identities then you must calculate the number. Now we have 2 numbers because of typist error. Irenaeus of Lyons told us quickly that the other number 616 was actually a typist error because the originally number was in gematria which the middle number was iota, where iota represents the number 6 at that time and so the copyist put a 1 instead. Here look for yourself:
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 30, Section 1
Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),-I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.
Section 3
It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (Teitan, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i), among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
It's funny that's exactly my theory about why the tower of Babel was prevented. The people were told to "fill the earth" instead they decide to stay in one area so they won't be scattered over the earth.I think it is technology. I can see not being able to buy or sale without it, it being chosen over God. People can't seem to live without it these days. Everyone is on the network in some way. It can easily turn into a choice of the network or God one day. Even here on Christian Forums. We are on computer. What if one day leaders call for one religion and you must be registered in the computer to use any site, to buy any food...all the numbers that the computer uses to think with somewhere maybe that 666. I know nothing of eschatology, but I think technology is going to play a big role one way or another. If anything, people struggle being on the net then serving God.
616 and 666 both apply.EDIT in the poll, please select all that apply. So if you select "man-made Torah" and "man-made Christ" select "both of the above" as well.
Apologies as I don't have the most scholarly sources for everything yet since I'm still fleshing out the evidence for this. If you can disprove anything in here or provide me with a better source that backs up what I am saying I would be happy with either one.
So the theory is that originally the mark of the beast meant "man-made torah" in Hebrew or Aramaic [1] and when it was translated into Greek some translators changed it to mean "man-made Christ" (the two are actually connected) [2]
The first thing is that the number is 616 in the earliest manuscripts: 616 (number) - Wikipedia also Papyrus Reveals New Clues to Ancient World
Gematria (or assigning numbers to letters) can get very full of woo and yield too many results (you can find 616 and 666 in too many people's names) so I want to figure out the shortest and most simple way to get 616 in Hebrew. If these sources are correct maybe you could do the following:
http://www.jensenpetersen.org/images/Ancient_Hebrew_Alphabet_Chart.pdf
The Letter Yod (yod means "arm" or "hand") (in the previous source they only mentioned the "arm" meaning)
tav means mark
resh means head
yod means hand
vav means affix/add
that is: "mark head hand affixed"
(all adds up to 616 תריו Gematria Value - English Gematria Calculator )
or see: Numeric Values of Hebrew Letters
Looking at the context of the verses [3][4] you get the idea of man-made torah.
So why did some translators of the Hebrew/Aramaic (or copiers of the Greek) change the number in Greek? Since 616 is in the earliest documents maybe the later translators were worried that as Christianity spread the audience wouldn't understand the meaning of Hebrew gematria and since the Greek letters also had meanings they changed the number to get a similar meaning in Greek (with Christ being thought of as the living Torah) [2]
In the Greek 666 is represented as chi (600) xi (60) stigma (6) and the meanings are "Christ detached-from piercing"[5] This is a reference to the gnostic version of Christ [6] It would take me too much space to describe all the animosity between early Christianity and Gnosticism but basically that there are a lot places in the new testament that criticise the Gnostic rejection of the law or "antinomianism".[7]
Just to include the mainstream theory in the mix as well; the other idea is that 666 means "Neron Ceasar" and that 616 means "Nero Ceasar" [8][9]
sources:
CONTINUED BELOW . . .
I agree. Let me know if I could make that more clear in my post. I'm saying 616 has a meaning in Hebrew gematria and it was changed to 666 so you could get a similar meaning from the letters in Greek.616 and 666 both apply.
the one number is relevant to man himself, no one in particular (evil trinity where man is God in all three persons, hence 666).I agree. Let me know if I could make that more clear in my post. I'm saying 616 has a meaning in Hebrew gematria and it was changed to 666 so you could get a similar meaning from the letters in Greek.
666th place name?the one number is relevant to man himself, no one in particular (evil trinity where man is God in all three persons, hence 666).
the other is relevant to the person in the bible who holds the 666th place name.
im not sure to be honest just spitballing.
the 666th person listed in the bible. This is only found by "calculating", you have to literally count his name.666th place name?
Do you know if this is right? Solomon is the 666th name in the Biblethe 666th person listed in the bible. This is only found by "calculating", you have to literally count his name.
I've never actually completed the counting, so I cannot verify. Though I was attempting to at one point.Do you know if this is right? Solomon is the 666th name in the Bible
The more interesting note to calculations and counting, is the fact that 666 in Hebrew was something like WWW if I am not mistaken. Fun fact.Do you know if this is right? Solomon is the 666th name in the Bible
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