What do you think the number of the beast means?

  • man-made Torah

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • man-made Christ

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • both of the above

    Votes: 1 5.6%
  • Nero or Neron

    Votes: 4 22.2%
  • other

    Votes: 12 66.7%
  • all of the above

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • Total voters
    18

1 John 4:1

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EDIT in the poll, please select all that apply. So if you select "man-made Torah" and "man-made Christ" select "both of the above" as well.

Apologies as I don't have the most scholarly sources for everything yet since I'm still fleshing out the evidence for this. If you can disprove anything in here or provide me with a better source that backs up what I am saying I would be happy with either one.

So the theory is that originally the mark of the beast meant "man-made torah" in Hebrew or Aramaic [1] and when it was translated into Greek some translators changed it to mean "man-made Christ" (the two are actually connected) [2]

The first thing is that the number is 616 in the earliest manuscripts: 616 (number) - Wikipedia also Papyrus Reveals New Clues to Ancient World
Gematria (or assigning numbers to letters) can get very full of woo and yield too many results (you can find 616 and 666 in too many people's names) so I want to figure out the shortest and most simple way to get 616 in Hebrew. If these sources are correct maybe you could do the following:
http://www.jensenpetersen.org/images/Ancient_Hebrew_Alphabet_Chart.pdf
The Letter Yod (yod means "arm" or "hand") (in the previous source they only mentioned the "arm" meaning)

tav means mark
resh means head
yod means hand
vav means affix/add

that is: "mark head hand affixed"

(all adds up to 616 תריו Gematria Value - English Gematria Calculator )
or see: Numeric Values of Hebrew Letters

Looking at the context of the verses [3][4] you get the idea of man-made torah.

So why did some translators of the Hebrew/Aramaic (or copiers of the Greek) change the number in Greek? Since 616 is in the earliest documents maybe the later translators were worried that as Christianity spread the audience wouldn't understand the meaning of Hebrew gematria and since the Greek letters also had meanings they changed the number to get a similar meaning in Greek (with Christ being thought of as the living Torah) [2]

In the Greek 666 is represented as chi (600) xi (60) stigma (6) and the meanings are "Christ detached-from piercing"[5] This is a reference to the gnostic version of Christ [6] It would take me too much space to describe all the animosity between early Christianity and Gnosticism but basically that there are a lot places in the new testament that criticise the Gnostic rejection of the law or "antinomianism".[7]

Just to include the mainstream theory in the mix as well; the other idea is that 666 means "Neron Ceasar" and that 616 means "Nero Ceasar" [8][9]

sources:
CONTINUED BELOW . . .
 
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1 John 4:1

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CONTINUED . . .

[1]
"It is important in this connection to note the Hebraisms of the whole of this part of the book, which prove that the writer or—if he himself originally wrote Hebrew or Aramaic—the translator could neither write nor speak Greek correctly. As to the relation of this to the apocalypse which follows see below."
REVELATION (BOOK OF) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"We cannot conclude without mentioning the theory advanced by the German scholar Vischer. He holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition, and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects. From a doctrinal point of view, we think, it cannot be objected to. There are other instances where inspired writers have availed themselves of non-canonical literature. Intrinsically considered it is not improbable. The Apocalypse abounds in passages which bear no specific Christian character but, on the contrary, show a decidedly Jewish complexion. Yet on the whole the theory is but a conjecture. (See also APOCRYPHA)"
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocalypse

[2]
Compare the following Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 and uses "Christ" in place of "Torah" (one idea you can get is that Christ is the living torah in that he fulfilled the law: Matthew 5:17)
Romans 10
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

Deut 30
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

[3]
Mark head hand affixed = torah
Deut 6:8"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Deuteronomy 11:18
"You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Exodus 13:9
"And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.

Exodus 13:16
"So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."

[4]
Context dictates it means something related to the torah and is man-made "it is the number of a man"
Rev Chapter 13
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads

[5]
" the letter Chi used to abbreviate the name of Christ . . ."
Christogram - Wikipedia

"The letter Ξ means detached-from.
. . .
Ksustos (ξυστός) is a detached portion of a building, a covered colonnade, a walking place on the grounds of a private residence or gymnasium."
Ξ (60), xi, ksi

(stigma has a value of 6 Greek Letter Stigma )

"The name, stigma (στίγμα), is originally a common Greek noun meaning "a mark, dot, puncture", or generally "a sign", from the verb στίζω ("to puncture");[1] the related but distinct word stigme (στιγμή) is the classical and post-classical word for "geometric point; punctuation mark".[2] Stigma was co-opted as a name specifically for the στ sign, evidently because of the acrophonic value of its initial st- as well as the analogy with the name of sigma."
Xi (letter) - Wikipedia

CONTINUED BELOW . . .
 
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1 John 4:1

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CONTINUED . . .
[6]
"Those Gnostic texts that discuss Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection display a variety of views that, nevertheless, reveal some common themes. James is consoled by Jesus in the First Apocalypse of James: “Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm.”19 In the Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Jesus says, “I did not die in reality, but in appearance.” Those “in error and blindness….saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was rejoicing in the height over all….And I was laughing at their ignorance.”20"
http://www.equip.org/articles/gnosticism-and-the-gnostic-jesus/

[7]
"The first people accused of antinomianism were found, apparently, in Gnosticism; various aberrant and licentious acts were ascribed to these by their orthodox enemies; we have few independent records of their actual teachings. In the Book of Revelation 2:6-15, the New Testament speaks of Nicolaitans, who are traditionally identified with a Gnostic sect, in terms that suggest the charge of antinomianism might be appropriate."
https://www.theopedia.com/antinomianism

[8]
"The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They are Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96). Of him the Seer has something very peculiar to say. He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (17:8). In verse 11 it is added: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction".

"All this sounds like oracular language. But the clue to its solution is furnished by a popular belief largely spread at the time. The death of Nero had been witnessed by few. Chiefly in the East a notion had taken hold of the mind of the people that Nero was still alive. Gentiles, Jews, and Christians were under the illusion that he was hiding himself, and as was commonly thought, he had gone over to the Parthians, the most troublesome foes of the empire. From there they expected him to return at the head of a mighty army to avenge himself on his enemies. The existence of this fanciful belief is a well-attested historic fact. Tacitus speaks of it: "Achaia atque Asia falso exterrit velut Nero adventaret, vario super ejus exitu rumore eoque pluribus vivere eum fingentibus credentibusque" (Hist., II, 8). So also Dio Chrysostomus: kai nyn (about A.D. 100) eti pantes epithymousi zen oi de pleistoi kai oiontai (Orat., 21, 10; cf. Suetonius, "Vit. Caes."; s.v. NERO and the SIBYLINE ORACLES). Thus the contemporaries of the Seer believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The Seer either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose.

"Nero had made a name for himself by his cruelty and licentiousness. The Christians in particular had reason to dread him. Under him the first persecution took place. The second occurred under Domitian. But unlike the previous one, it was not confined to Italy, but spread throughout the provinces. Many Christians were put to death, many were banished (Eusebius, Church History III.17-19). In this way the Seer was led to regard Domitian as a second Nero, "Nero redivivus". Hence he described him as "the one that was, that is not, and that is to return". Hence also he counts him as the eighth and at the same time makes him one of the preceding seven, viz. the fifth, Nero. The identification of the two emperors suggested itself all the more readily since even pagan authors called Domitian a second Nero (calvus Nero, Juvenal. IV, 38). The popular belief concerning Nero's death and return seems to be referred to also in the passage (13:3): "And I saw one of its heads as it were slain to death: and its death's wound was healed". . ."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocalypse


[9]
" . . . In ancient Greek and Hebrew, letters also represented numerals (as in Latin), their values assigned according to the order of the alphabet, alpha and aelph, for example, having the numerical value of 1. By adding these values, words could be represented as the sum of their numbers. This literation of numbers and numeration of letters was known as isopsephia by the Greeks and gematria by the Jews (which, in cabalistic practice, has been used to interpret Hebrew scripture). Suetonius relates an example of isopsephia when he records that graffiti appeared in both Greek and Latin lampooning Nero after he had his mother killed: "A calculation new. Nero his mother slew" (Life of Nero, XXXIX.2). In Greek, both "Nero" and "killed his own mother" have the same numerical value (1005).

"If the Greek spelling of Nero Caesar (Neron Kaisar) is transliterated into Hebrew (nrwn qsr), the numerical equivalent is 666—although it should be remembered that this number was not represented as a figure but as letters of the alphabet or written in full. In other words, the "number of the beast" was not expressed as "666" (indeed, discrete Arabic numerals would not be invented for another five hundred years) but by the phrase hexakosioi hexekonta hex or the numerical values of the Greek letters themselves, chi (600), xi (60), and stigma (6).

"But what is curious is not so much that 666 can be decoded to signify Nero but that the name is encoded in this particular number, especially since it could have been represented as readily in other ways. It only is when the words are transliterated from Greek into Hebrew and then calculated that the numeration adds up to 666 (nrwn qsr, 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 + 100 + 60 + 200). Even so, this is an alternate spelling, a letter being transliterated in "Neron" (nrwn instead of nrw) but not in "Caesar" (qsr instead of qysr). Although these forms do appear in the Talmud and an Aramaic scroll from Qumran, they no doubt complicated the solution to the puzzle.

"For Watt, the significance of 666 is that its expression in Latin is the sequential Roman numerals DCLXVI, which parallels but is the antithesis of the "Alpha and Omega" that John uses to characterize both Christ (22:13) and God (1:8, 21:6). As the Deity represents the beginning and end, so the Antichrist is a reversal of the first and last, D (500) preceding I (1). To phrase this another way, 666 (or rather DCLXVI) signifies the Antichrist because that number signifies Nero, and Nero—who was a matricide, proclaimed his divinity on coins as the "Savior and Benefactor of the World," and was the first emperor to persecute Christians—signifies the Antichrist.

"If the Latin (rather than the Greek) spelling "Nero Caesar" is transliterated into Hebrew (nrw qsr), the final "n" in Neron being omitted (and its corresponding value of 50), the name computes as 616, which is the number indicated in the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament (the fragment illustrated below). If "Neron Caesar" is correct, it may be that the Latin was transcribed incorrectly, perhaps because the copyist realized that this transliteration did not equate to 666 and so omitted the letter, which changed the sum to 616. Still, each digit of 666 is one less than seven, the perfect number, and such mathematical play may have tended to establish 666, rather than 616. . ."
Nero as the Antichrist

END
 
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Micah888

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To phrase this another way, 666... signifies the Antichrist
This is the correct meaning in a nutshell. One could take it a step further and say that 666 represents Satan within the Man of Sin -- the future Antichrist (and Nero definitely did not qualify).

It would appear that this number 666 will be an integral part of the identification number of each and every person under the reign of the Antichrist (with additional letters and/or numbers (or both) to complete it). Since we have RFID technology in place today, it will likely be within an implanted microchip in either the right hand or in the forehead.
 
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1 John 4:1

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This is the correct meaning in a nutshell. One could take it a step further and say that 666 represents Satan within the Man of Sin -- the future Antichrist (and Nero definitely did not qualify).

It would appear that this number 666 will be an integral part of the identification number of each and every person under the reign of the Antichrist (with additional letters and/or numbers (or both) to complete it). Since we have RFID technology in place today, it will likely be within an implanted microchip in either the right hand or in the forehead.
I tend to think that there are partial fulfillments before the final fulfillment. Essentially, there is a process by which these things are fulfilled rather than a definate event. I postulate this because of verses such as the following, especially the first one:
1 John 4:3
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Luke 9:27
Matthew 24:34
Luke 21:32


 
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1 John 4:1

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To give an example, the kingdom of God is not just heaven. It is also the people of God's kingdom on earth. (the movement of people Jesus started as well as Israel in the old testament) This is the precursor to the kingdom descending to earth in revelation, but it is also called the kingdom of God: Luke 17:21

'But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”' (NKJV Matthew 19:14)

EDIT: the kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven I believe are identical since they are used interchangeably.
 
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1 John 4:1

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This is the correct meaning in a nutshell. One could take it a step further and say that 666 represents Satan within the Man of Sin -- the future Antichrist (and Nero definitely did not qualify).
Would Nero not qualify because he isn't literally Satan? For what reason do you disagree with the Catholic encyclopedia article and the cache of the history page I used as a source? (it's fine to disagree I'm just curious)
 
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Kevin Snow

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Alright, we know that scripture cannot be broken right? So if you get a partial fulfillment of scripture then you did not get what that scripture is actually pointing to. Partial fulfillments of scripture are what I call spiritual concurrences. They happen all the time. Napoleon Bonaparte also had elements of fulfilling antichrist agendas.

The problem is when you start to stretch the word of God to make out a partial fulfillment to somehow be the real fulfillment. But ultimately you need EVERY single element of the prophecy to be true in order to say that this scripture was fulfilled. Otherwise it was just an occurrence of a spiritual concurrence.

So in the case of Nero, we see that he destroyed the entire temple; did not leave one stone upon another. And this is what Christ said would happen because they did not understand that he was the Christ. (Luke 19:44)

BUT, what is the nature of the actual antichrist? In revelations all that the antichrist takes is the outer courts of the sanctuary and he does NOT destroy the temple. NO, in fact the antichrist needs the temple in order to set up the abomination that makes desolate. So Nero is an antichrist figure but not the antichrist.

Let's move on from all that.

Now we are concerned with actually calculating the number of the beast. It calls the one with wisdom to do this. So guess what? A bunch of people will NOT calculate it. ONLY the one who has been called to do it will do it.

So let's move on from that as well.

Because, how would you even understand how to calculate a single number? There are many calculations but all of them have an equivalence to something that we balance out. But here, we are given only a number and the nature of the thing it represents: the fact that the beast was, and is not, but is to come.

Through these two identities then you must calculate the number. Now we have 2 numbers because of typist error. Irenaeus of Lyons told us quickly that the other number 616 was actually a typist error because the originally number was in gematria which the middle number was iota, where iota represents the number 6 at that time and so the copyist put a 1 instead. Here look for yourself:

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 30, Section 1
Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),-I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.

Section 3
It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (Teitan, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i), among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
 
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dfw69

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Apologies as I don't have the most scholarly sources for everything yet since I'm still fleshing this out. If you can disprove anything in here or provide me with a better source that backs up what I am saying I would be happy with either one.

So the theory is that originally the mark of the beast meant "man-made torah" in Hebrew or Aramaic [1] and when it was translated into Greek some translators changed it to mean "man-made Christ" (the two are actually connected) [2]

The first thing is that the number is 616 in the earliest manuscripts: 616 (number) - Wikipedia also Papyrus Reveals New Clues to Ancient World
Gematria (or assigning numbers to letters) can get very full of woo and yield too many results (you can find 616 and 666 in too many people's names) so I want to figure out the shortest and most simple way to get 616 in Hebrew. If these sources are correct maybe you could do the following:
http://www.jensenpetersen.org/images/Ancient_Hebrew_Alphabet_Chart.pdf
The Letter Yod (yod means "arm" or "hand") (in the previous source they only mentioned the "arm" meaning)

tav means mark
resh means head
yod means hand
vav means affix/add

that is: "mark head hand affixed"

(all adds up to 616 תריו Gematria Value - English Gematria Calculator )
or see: Numeric Values of Hebrew Letters

Looking at the context of the verses [3][4] you get the idea of man-made torah.

So why did some translators of the Hebrew/Aramaic (or copiers of the Greek) change the number in Greek? Since 616 is in the earliest documents maybe the later translators were worried that as Christianity spread the audience wouldn't understand the meaning of Hebrew gematria and since the Greek letters also had meanings they changed the number to get a similar meaning in Greek (with Christ being thought of as the living Torah) [2]

In the Greek 666 is represented as chi (600) xi (60) stigma (6) and the meanings are "Christ detached-from piercing"[5] This is a reference to the gnostic version of Christ [6] It would take me too much space to describe all the animosity between early Christianity and Gnosticism but basically that there are a lot places in the new testament that criticise the Gnostic rejection of the law or "antinomianism".[7]

Just to include the mainstream theory in the mix as well; the other idea is that 666 means "Neron Ceasar" and that 616 means "Nero Ceasar" [8][9]

sources:
CONTINUED BELOW . . .

I lean towards the idea that 616 are man made Torah laws that the antichrist and his false prophet will implement as part of temple worship

My guess is the number of the beast is the 613 mitzvah plus 3 new ones

One new commandment is fortold in revelation which is to worship the image of the beast ...which is probably a golem created in his image and placed in the holy of holies....

Not sure what the other 2 may be...
 
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Micah888

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Would Nero not qualify because he isn't literally Satan?
Nero never entered the temple at Jerusalem to sit in the temple claiming that he was God. That is what the Antichrist will do.

Nero had a statue built to present himself as a god in Rome, but later committed suicide. So he could not possibly be even close to being "an antichrist", let alone the Antichrist described in 2 Thessalonians 2, Rev 13, etc.

Titus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem, but also did not not sit in the temple claiming that he was God. That blasphemy is reserved for the future Satan-possessed Antichrist.

Also, you might be further ahead consulting the Jewish Encyclopedia, rather than the Catholic Encyclopedia. The former quotes Josephus, who deliberately presents Titus as benign, rather than evil, because Josephus was acting as a go-between.
 
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Alright, we know that scripture cannot be broken right? So if you get a partial fulfillment of scripture then you did not get what that scripture is actually pointing to. Partial fulfillments of scripture are what I call spiritual concurrences. They happen all the time. Napoleon Bonaparte also had elements of fulfilling antichrist agendas.

The problem is when you start to stretch the word of God to make out a partial fulfillment to somehow be the real fulfillment. But ultimately you need EVERY single element of the prophecy to be true in order to say that this scripture was fulfilled. Otherwise it was just an occurrence of a spiritual concurrence.
Well, I would agree that some prophecies are like that and I haven't finished studying eschatology by any means so I'm withholding judgement right now. However, my question is: how would you deal with the verses I posted before? The Son of Man is prophesied to come in his kingdom and people are said to not taste death till they see the kingdom that are standing there today. Luke 21:32 even says "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place." I'm curious what you think of all this:
1 John 4:3
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Luke 9:27
Matthew 24:34
Luke 21:32

I've posted something before that dealt with some of the kingdom part: Taking Luke 14:33 literally I'll quote the relevant part below: (Young's literal uses "reign" instead of "kingdom")

The Kingdom of Heaven" or "the reign of God" is establishing God's reign over and through the people of God: ". . . the reign of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the reign of God;" (Luke 18:16) Considering John 16:7 the coming of the Holy Spirit to the Church in Acts was likely the fulfillment of the following verses:
"Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'" (Matthew 16:28)
"`And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come." (Matthew 10:23)

While the reign of God or heaven doesn't appear in the old testament, the "kingdom of Yahweh" (translated in YLT "Jehovah") certainly can't be different and is made up of the people of Israel: (1 Chronicles 28:5) (2 Chronicles 13:8)
Also observe these parallels of maybe a disciple who was waiting for a Church like that in Acts: ”Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting G4327 for the reign of God, came, boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus.” (Mark 15:43) (Parallel in Luke 23:51) ”And lo, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [is] Simeon, and this man is righteous and devout, looking for the comforting G3874 of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him,” (Luke 2:25) Acts 9:31 uses the same word G3874 to describe the work of the holy spirit after Christ. ”Then, indeed, the assemblies throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria, had peace, being built up, and, going on in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort G3874 of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.” (Acts of the Apostles 9:31)
 
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Kevin Snow

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Well, I would agree that some prophecies are like that and I haven't finished studying eschatology by any means so I'm withholding judgement right now. However, my question is: how would you deal with the verses I posted before? The Son of Man is prophesied to come in his kingdom and people are said to not taste death till they see the kingdom that are standing there today. Luke 21:32 even says "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place." I'm curious what you think of all this:
1 John 4:3
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Luke 9:27
Matthew 24:34
Luke 21:32

I've posted something before that dealt with some of the kingdom part: Taking Luke 14:33 literally I'll quote the relevant part below: (Young's literal uses "reign" instead of "kingdom")

The Kingdom of Heaven" or "the reign of God" is establishing God's reign over and through the people of God: ". . . the reign of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the reign of God;" (Luke 18:16) Considering John 16:7 the coming of the Holy Spirit to the Church in Acts was likely the fulfillment of the following verses:
"Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'" (Matthew 16:28)
"`And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come." (Matthew 10:23)

While the reign of God or heaven doesn't appear in the old testament, the "kingdom of Yahweh" (translated in YLT "Jehovah") certainly can't be different and is made up of the people of Israel: (1 Chronicles 28:5) (2 Chronicles 13:8)
Also observe these parallels of maybe a disciple who was waiting for a Church like that in Acts: ”Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting G4327 for the reign of God, came, boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus.” (Mark 15:43) (Parallel in Luke 23:51) ”And lo, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [is] Simeon, and this man is righteous and devout, looking for the comforting G3874 of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him,” (Luke 2:25) Acts 9:31 uses the same word G3874 to describe the work of the holy spirit after Christ. ”Then, indeed, the assemblies throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria, had peace, being built up, and, going on in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort G3874 of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.” (Acts of the Apostles 9:31)

So what are you asking exactly?
 
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1 John 4:1

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So what are you asking exactly?
Not sure if I'll be able to make this any more clear. There's verses that say that things (EDIT: things in the end-times) would happen very soon. (in that generation etc . . .) There's also verses that imply that the kingdom of heaven was there on earth at that time: "within you." Is this a partial fulfillment of the final kingdom of heaven? Also, you say Nero wasn't the anti-christ that the anti-christ would take only the outer court etc . . . Yet there's verses that say the son of man would come soon after Christ. So can the son of man come before the anti-christ? Did the anti-christ already come? (if not Nero then who) Do these verses that say the son of man would come soon after the time of Christ have an alternate interpretation? Again, basically how would you interpret the list of verses that I posted. (EDIT: in an eschatological context, that is)
 
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Not sure if I'll be able to make this any more clear. There's verses that say that things would happen very soon. (in that generation etc . . .) There's also verses that imply that the kingdom of heaven was there on earth at that time: "within you." Is this a partial fulfillment of the final kingdom of heaven? Also, you say Nero wasn't the anti-christ that the anti-christ would take only the outer court etc . . . Yet there's verses that say the son of man would come soon after Christ. So can the son of man come before the anti-christ? Did the anti-christ already come? (if not Nero then who) Do these verses that say the son of man would come soon after the time of Christ have an alternate interpretation? Again, basically how would you interpret the list of verses that I posted.

I'll tell you how I interpret them all. Christ returns after every word is completed before his return.

So if he is in heaven when he opens all the seals, then all the events of the seals must happen before his return. The 7 bowls of God's wrath happen before his return.

The fact that it gives an impression that the second coming is soon is a matter of God's perspective, not ours. Why else would it tell us that he comes like a thief. He is telling us that it's soon but if we get lazy and think it's not then we get surprised by his return. We can't drop our guard ever but must remain awake, making the best use of the time.

There are many antichrist's because they act in the same steps but there is only 1 of them which is the man of lawlessness who actually fulfills the scripture. What else are you missing?
 
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1 John 4:1

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I'll tell you how I interpret them all. Christ returns after every word is completed before his return.

So if he is in heaven when he opens all the seals, then all the events of the seals must happen before his return. The 7 bowls of God's wrath happen before his return.

The fact that it gives an impression that the second coming is soon is a matter of God's perspective, not ours.

Ok cool. The problem I see is that it isn't speaking from God's perspective here. If it just said "soon" you might be able to get that to work. However, it puts it in terms of humans alive at the time not dying and not being finished going through all the cities in Israel till it happens:
" . . . some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
". . . there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."
". . .you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
". . . this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (if you read through the previous verses Matthew 24:34 there's a lot of things here that will take place before that generation died off)

So that's why I'm thinking there are partial fulfillments or that these things were fulfilled and there's just a process that needs to finish afterwards: the coming of the holy spirit in Acts maybe was the "son of man coming in his kingdom" but maybe he hasn't finished coming, so it's a process by which the church is filled with the holy spirit and there will be some point in the future where the church is filled again and it actually sticks this time. (EDIT: after which the new Jerusalem descends to earth being the final fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven) :) Anyways that's the best I can do right now with this stuff:
1 John 4:3
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Luke 9:27
Matthew 24:34
Luke 21:32
 
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Kevin Snow

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Ok cool. The problem I see is that it isn't speaking from God's perspective here. If it just said "soon" you might be able to get that to work. However, it puts it in terms of humans alive at the time not dying and not being finished going through all the cities in Israel till it happens:
" . . . some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
". . . there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God."
". . .you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
". . . this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (if you read through the previous verses Matthew 24:34 there's a lot of things here that will take place before that generation died off)

So that's why I'm thinking there are partial fulfillments or that these things were fulfilled and there's just a process that needs to finish afterwards: the coming of the holy spirit in Acts maybe was the "son of man coming in his kingdom" but maybe he hasn't finished coming, so it's a process by which the church is filled with the holy spirit and there will be some point in the future where the church is filled again and it actually sticks this time. :) Anyways that's the best I can do right now with this stuff:
1 John 4:3
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 16:28
Luke 9:27
Matthew 24:34
Luke 21:32

When Christ said that some standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God, we have John for one that saw it by visions of heaven. Also consider this word,

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. ~2 Corinthians 12:2-4

This man could easily have been one of them standing there as Christ said this. So his word could be fulfilled by means of heavenly visions, even as Steven saw heaven open and the Son of Man at the right hand of God before his death. These did see the kingdom before their deaths.

Next, when Christ said this generation will not pass away until all these things take place, the word generation is generalized here referring to mankind as a whole. It affirms that we will not destroy ourselves before these words all come to fruition. And there is nothing more to read into that. The scripture can be quite loose in it's rhetoric.
 
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1 John 4:1

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When Christ said that some standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God, we have John for one that saw it by visions of heaven. Also consider this word,

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. ~2 Corinthians 12:2-4

This man could easily have been one of them standing there as Christ said this. So his word could be fulfilled by means of heavenly visions, even as Steven saw heaven open and the Son of Man at the right hand of God before his death. These did see the kingdom before their deaths.

Next, when Christ said this generation will not pass away until all these things take place, the word generation is generalized here referring to mankind as a whole. It affirms that we will not destroy ourselves before these words all come to fruition. And there is nothing more to read into that. The scripture can be quite loose in it's rhetoric.

What about seeing the son of man coming? (maybe was this fulfilled by the vision like in revelation of the second coming?) And did they not make it through all the cities in Israel?

" . . . some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
". . .you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
 
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What about seeing the son of man coming? (maybe was this fulfilled by the vision in revelation of the second coming?) And did they not make it through all the cities in Israel?

" . . . some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
". . .you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Now about going through all the cities of Israel, it is said that the Holy Spirit has been moving west all across the earth, which is why the Holy Spirit did not permit them to go east when they tried but were instead called to go into Macedonia. It is with the full return all around the world of the evangelism of the gospel message and then back again to Israel. In this way, on the second return to Israel from God's presence it will be that we will not have gone through all the cities of Israel. Either way, scripture cannot be broken.
 
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This is the correct meaning in a nutshell. One could take it a step further and say that 666 represents Satan within the Man of Sin -- the future Antichrist (and Nero definitely did not qualify).

It would appear that this number 666 will be an integral part of the identification number of each and every person under the reign of the Antichrist (with additional letters and/or numbers (or both) to complete it). Since we have RFID technology in place today, it will likely be within an implanted microchip in either the right hand or in the forehead.

It certainly is possible today with the tech we have right now.
Such a strong delusion will God send o the people who reject the gospel and love the evil lie they will follow the beast without hesitation or remorse, none of them will repent even after all the supernatural extreme judgements plagues God puts on them. They DO know it is God and they curse His Holy Name because of the plagues. Yet they think the beast invincible saying who can fight against the beast who was and is not and will go to destruction.

BUT of course they follow the beast, since none of their names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. They were not chosen by the Father for eternal life to believe in the Son. Unless God makes you born of Himself so that you have life, then you follow Satan, read Ephesians 2.

Revelation 17:8

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
 
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Nero never entered the temple at Jerusalem to sit in the temple claiming that he was God. That is what the Antichrist will do.

Nero had a statue built to present himself as a god in Rome, but later committed suicide. So he could not possibly be even close to being "an antichrist", let alone the Antichrist described in 2 Thessalonians 2, Rev 13, etc.

Titus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem, but also did not not sit in the temple claiming that he was God. That blasphemy is reserved for the future Satan-possessed Antichrist.

Also, you might be further ahead consulting the Jewish Encyclopedia, rather than the Catholic Encyclopedia. The former quotes Josephus, who deliberately presents Titus as benign, rather than evil, because Josephus was acting as a go-between.

Thanks for your thoughts. What about the idea that Domitian was the resurrected Nero (in the form that he behaved the same way and that there were pagan authors that referred to him as such) (see the catholic encyclopedia article)

So I'm not a preterist (since I believe these things are still being fulfilled) but I was curious what you thought of these arguments that they were also fulfilled at that time. I suspect "dual fulfillment" is the correct way to interpret at least some prophecy, see this answer: What are the major variations of the "double-fulfillment" hermeneutic? also this: Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia


  • Titus was worshipped in the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple proclaiming Himself to be God.” Josephus records this event: “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.”2 A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshipped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole in explicit fulfillment of Revelation 13:14: “He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.” And since Titus was also granted the title Caesar at Vespasian’s coronation, Titus could also be said to be a living, breathing image of his father just as man is the image of God (Genesis 1:26) and Jesus is the image of the Father (Colossians 1:15). Titus is also the “mouth” of Vespasian just as Aaron was the mouth of Moses (Exodus 4:16). Thus when Titus was worshiped beside the images of himself and Vespasian on the numina legionum (meaning “gods of the legions”), Vespasian, Titus’ father and emperor, could also have been said to have been worshiped through Titus who was the mouth and image of his father.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-9: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution

"When Vespasian acquired the title Caesar, both of his sons, Titus and Domitian, also inherited the title concurrently (three-in-one trinity?). And just as Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, Titus was likewise the firstborn son of Vespasian. Thus I believe that Caesar Titus, the firstborn son of Caesar Vespasian is the image of the beast, Rome and his father, in the same way that Jesus, the firstborn Son of God, is the image of His Heavenly Father (Colossians 1:15). The idea that Caesar Titus is the image of the beast, the emperor Vespasian and his kingdom, is also implied by the fact that Titus and his father, the emperor, shared the same blended nickname or cognomen, Titus Flavius Vespasianus."
2 Thessalonians 2:1-9: A Preterist Commentary-The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! - Revelation Revolution
 
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