No one denies that Christ was our substitute, that He bore our death, that He bore our sufferings, that He bore our sin (etc); those things aren't under dispute. The dispute is on who or what is that which is inflicting death and suffering on Him.
-CryptoLutheran
You might want to read my post 33 and 49.
Yes! There is a kind of “substitution” in that Christ was physically tortured, humiliated and murdered and we personally are not physically tortured, humiliated and murdered which is our just “punishment” for our rebellious disobedience, but is it just punishment if as children of God we repent and are forgiven?
Penal Substitution is totally unjust and you cannot provide justice through unjust action, so what is happening?
Here is what we all agree on “God forgives our rebellious disobedience 100%”.
If that is “true” how can there also be something to be paid?
All wonderful parents forgive their rebellious disobedient children, but they also, if at all possible, see to their children’s fair/just/Loving discipline, since Loving discipline has huge benefits.
Dr. Dobson would say: “You discipline your children and never punish your children”.
Think about this:
There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you, but since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father two hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, and are comfortable being around him appreciating his Love.
Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?
Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?
Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?
Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?
What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?
Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?
How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?
Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
Christ (physically) and God (empathically) went through this cruel experience, so we can be “disciplined” by being crucified with Christ (empathically). They are with us through this torturous experience, but it builds our relationship.
Do you feel you have been crucified with Christ something like those 3000 went through on Pentecost?