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Featured Theories of atonement

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by David Neos, Apr 16, 2019.

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  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It should not be in dispute according to Scriptures and logic.

    If Christ did not become our substitute, Who would be judging our transgressions? Pilate? The Sanhedrin? Sinful men?
     
  2. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    And by whom was a beaten, scourged and brutally executed?
    It does if you allow for another understanding of the word substitution. In PSA, Christ is the substitute by being "a cosmic punching bag", as ViaCrucis put it. In satisfaction theory, Christ is the substitute by taking on the responsibilty to deal with our sin before the Father, by atoning for our sins in our place, so we don't have to. Both are forms of substitution. It's the penal part which is in dispute, not the substitution part.
    No one is disputing that. And I'll even admit that Christ did suffer some form of divine chastisement, as a son might be chastised by his father (Isaiah 53:5.10). Again, it's the penal part that's in dispute.
     
  3. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    My favorite one is the one that Jesus told us.

    We are forgiven if we forgive others.
    We are made righteous by talking and acting like Jesus (who talks and acts like his Father)
    We are justified by treating others with care, love and respect.

    The other ones seem to only focus on things we BELIEVE. But if our beliefs don't drastically change our thoughts and behavior, how can they do us any good?
    I have always been confused by that.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    And by Whose will? That is what needs answering. The Father sent the Son right?

    Which is the default hyperbole. I'll share a piece by Anglican and Evangelical scholar J.I. Packer which hopefully clears this up:

    "The Logic of Penal Substitution" by J.I. Packer

    Christ paid the penalty that's the penal in Penal Substitution Atonement. It is not the PSA view of an angry Father punishing His Son and getting satisfaction for the punishment. But taking up the cross Jesus taking the punishment due us was a pleasing aroma one which redeemed us. That is what Isaiah 53:10 is speaking of. It was the will of the Father that the Son take up the cross and endure what is rightfully our due as we are transgressors of the Law.

    Welcome to Penal Substitution.

    Penal as it relates to penalty. You have already established Jesus suffered the penalty due us. So not seeing why the problem with 'penal.'
     
  5. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You might want to read my post 33 and 49.

    Yes! There is a kind of “substitution” in that Christ was physically tortured, humiliated and murdered and we personally are not physically tortured, humiliated and murdered which is our just “punishment” for our rebellious disobedience, but is it just punishment if as children of God we repent and are forgiven?

    Penal Substitution is totally unjust and you cannot provide justice through unjust action, so what is happening?

    Here is what we all agree on “God forgives our rebellious disobedience 100%”.

    If that is “true” how can there also be something to be paid?

    All wonderful parents forgive their rebellious disobedient children, but they also, if at all possible, see to their children’s fair/just/Loving discipline, since Loving discipline has huge benefits.

    Dr. Dobson would say: “You discipline your children and never punish your children”.

    Think about this:

    There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you, but since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father two hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, and are comfortable being around him appreciating his Love.

    Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

    Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

    Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

    Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

    What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

    Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

    How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

    Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?



    Christ (physically) and God (empathically) went through this cruel experience, so we can be “disciplined” by being crucified with Christ (empathically). They are with us through this torturous experience, but it builds our relationship.

    Do you feel you have been crucified with Christ something like those 3000 went through on Pentecost?
     
  6. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    Chastisement is not penalty. God chastising Israel (here in the Person of Christ) has formation and upbringing (and ultimately sanctification and salvation) as its goal, as a father raises his children. Punishment implies a passing of judgement, and inflicting harm on the wrongdoers in order to avenge afflicted. Again, small difference, but just big enough to matter.
    Suffering, even enduring death, for another is not the same as taking the punishment of another. When the Levites bore the iniquities of the people (Leviticus 10:17; Number 18:1.23), were they beining punished or did they take the penalty? No, they did bear the iniquity of the people in the sense that they had the responsibility to atone for the sins of the people by making sacrifices. And for the people, the sacrifice was not a 'substitution' where the animal were punished in their place, since animals were pretty expensive and a valuable resource. This animal was punished, so you don't have to? Yeah, I just lost my source of income and will need to spend years getting it back by raising a new calf, so I feel pretty much punished ...
    Christ, being the High Priest, bore the iniquities of the people (the whole world) in this sense, and took on the duty to restore communion with God by sacrificing a immaculate sacrifice and victim which he himself provided, i.e. his own Body. This paradigm of satisfaction not punishment fits better with the OT liturgical-sacrificial system, which pointed to Christ.
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You might want to read my posts 33, 49 and 65 because I do agree with your assessment of Penal Substitution.

    I do not agree with the idea the Old Testament sacrifices themselves satisfied God and we can look at Lev. 5, but first remember: Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 12:33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” Psalm 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. Isaiah 1:11 “The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

    Phil. 4 The Philippians brought “a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.” But it was money to help Paul and not directly a blood sacrifice to God. God could have gotten “money” to Paul, but the pleasure God receives is in the heart of the giver.

    In Lev. 5 we have sin offerings as part of the atonement process for individual sins. These sins are really “minor” (unintentional) sins which you would have to be really careful not to make. You could accidentally tough with your toe a dead unclean rat thinking it was a dead rabbit in you path by kicking it away. We might be able to extrapolate up to what atonement would be like for intentional rebellious sins directly against God, by experience this atonement process.

    What is the objective of the sacrifice in Lev. 5?

    Blood is not needed in the sacrifice itself, since a bag of flour could be used.

    The sacrifice could be a lamb, two birds or a bag of flour and this was contingent on the wealth of the sinner, which would be unexplainable if the sacrifice itself was pleasing to God satisfying the wrath for a person’s particular sin. The unexplainable is the fact the sin is exactly the same and a person is a person no matter how wealthy, but the sacrifice itself is different trying to provide somewhat equal hardship on the sinner?

    The hardship on the sinner is extremely significant even for these “minor” sins there is a somewhat lite but equal disciplining of the sinner. It is described in Lev. 5:6 “As a penalty for the sin they have committed…” and not “to please God” somehow. The “and they will be forgiven” is after the atonement process is completed correctly and not part of the process (this also has to do with Hebrew sentence structure with the translators using “and” to refer to something separate and different).

    God is not somehow being “paid off”/ “satisfied by some offering” or "punish" the sinner but the sinner is being fairly justly Lovingly disciplined for his minor sins.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Actually it is. If someone is taking on the penalty due me, they are undergoing my punishment.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You previously objected Christ as a victim.
     
  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You may want to read my posts 33, 49, 65 and 67.
    Christ took the punishment you fully deserved, but not to make it so you, the guilty, could go Scot free. Christ and God went through all this, so you could be fairly, justly Lovingly "punished" (the Greek word often translated punished can and should most of the time be translated disciplined). We are to be crucified "with Christ" empathetically.
     
  11. Mark_Sam

    Mark_Sam Newbie

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    Christ is the sacrificial Victim, I don't object to that. What I do object to, is the narrow judicial understandig of sacrifice as the transfer of punishment, and nothing else.
    Suffering for a cause ≠ being punished.
    I guess the suffering martyrs are being punished as well?

    This is going nowhere. You are either unwilling or unable to concede that the word "sacrifice" and the OT sacrificial system could possibly be understood in any other way than PSA.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Perhaps because no theory other than PSA defines substitution.
     
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