Theonomy in Debate

stenerson

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While I think that the Mosaic law should be followed, I don't fully qualify as a theonomist because I don't think it should be imposed. God does not take away our choice of whether to serve Him. Furthermore, Messiah died to pay the penalty of the sins of the world, so we should not enforce a penalty that has already been paid. .

I don't think that applies to what Theonomist believe. That is, it has nothing to do with forcing people to convert, or to serve God.
 
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Soyeong

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I don't think that applies to what Theonomist believe. That is, it has nothing to do with forcing people to convert, or to serve God.

If a theonomist is just someone who believes that Mosaic law should be observed in modern societies, then I am a theonomist. However, when I look at some of the goals listed at the wikipedia page, there is much that I am not on board with:

Various theonomic authors have stated such goals as "the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics",[4] exclusion of non-Christians from voting and citizenship,[5] and the application of Biblical law by the state.[6] Under such a system of Biblical law, homosexual acts,[7] adultery, witchcraft, and blasphemy[8] would be punishable by death. Propagation of idolatry or "false religions" would be illegal[9] and could also be punished by the death penalty.
--

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral commands. If you want to say that there are moral civil laws and moral ceremonial laws, then so be it, but the law was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so disobedience to any of God's laws is sinful and immoral and something we are told to avoid.
 
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stenerson

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From same article:
"More recent theonomic writers such as Joel McDurmon, President of American Vision, have moved away from this position, stating that these death penalties are no longer binding in the new covenant."

These are the guys I've been hearing out. Joel McDurmon is the theonomist debating in the OP.
You are Messianic? Is that part of the Hebrew Roots movement?
 
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Soyeong

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From same article:
"More recent theonomic writers such as Joel McDurmon, President of American Vision, have moved away from this position, stating that these death penalties are no longer binding in the new covenant."

These are the guys I've been hearing out. Joel McDurmon is the theonomist debating in the OP.
You are Messianic? Is that part of the Hebrew Roots movement?

I think Theonomists have a variety of beliefs just as Messianic do. Indeed, I am a Messianic. I'd say that Hebrews Roots is part Messianic Judaism, and while I agree with its emphasis on the importance of understanding the Jewish cultural, historical, and religious context of the Bible, I do not agree with everything I've seen taught by them.

One of the things that came to my attention when I first started studying Messianic Judaism was the disparity of the view of the law that the Jews had that is expressed as a divine privilege and a delight (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119, Romans 7:22), and the view of most other Christians who think of the law as a heavy legalistic burden, and I eventually came to the conclusion that the Jews had the correct understanding of it. God did give the law to curse us, but rather He gave it for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13). Obedience to the law was never about what we legalistically get in return, but about demonstrating our love to God (John 14:15), about demonstrating our faith in God for how to live, and about growing in a relationship with Him. A relationship with Messiah is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4), so if you keep the law without that focus, then you are are completely missing the point, and this is what Paul had missed prior to his realization of who the Messiah was, which is why he considered it all to be rubbish (Philippians 3:8).
 
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stenerson

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We have some Messianic guys around here. Don't always understand what they're saying since they for the most part insist on using Hebrew words and names.
But from what I understand there is a wide variety of Hebrew roots groups.
No doubt the relationship of the Law to gospel NT believers is a big subject.
 
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Soyeong

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We have some Messianic guys around here. Don't always understand what they're saying since they for the most part insist on using Hebrew words and names.

Some people make a big deal out of using their Hebrew names, but in the Bible that names were much more closely associated with who the person was than to what they were referred to as, so I think correctly understanding the identity of the person that the name refers to is much more important than correctly pronouncing it. It is worth going through a study of Bible with a focus on the meanings of the names that are used. Just on the surface:

Luke 2:28-30 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: 29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace. 30 For my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

When Simeon was saying this, he was holding a baby named "Salvation", so he was making a play on words, which is not infrequent in the Bible, but which is frequently lost in translation.

But from what I understand there is a wide variety of Hebrew roots groups.

I tend to think of denominations as general categories rather than a specific set of beliefs that everyone adheres to without variation. There can be a lot of differences between two churches of the same denomination depending on the views of their leadership, but usually there is agreement about core beliefs.

No doubt the relationship of the Law to gospel NT believers is a big subject.

Indeed, repentance from what God has revealed to be sin is a central part of the gospel message, and if not for God's revelation in the law, how else did they know or are we to know what to repent from doing?
 
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stenerson

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Theonomy, applied to a nation that has for the most part converted to and is being discipled by Christ is actually a freer society than we have today.
Most proponents of Theonomy are convinced that a true Libertarian and free society can only come when ruled by the precepts of God.
Opponents try to paint it as consisting of an oppressive and intrusive government. The truth is that compared to, say for example America today, it would much more liberal towards certain offenses.
If people steal, they would have to work to pay it of with interest instead being locked away in a brutal prison system.
Geneva under Calvin is lampooned by many Evangelicals today as being repressive and harsh. One heretic was burnt at the stake during his time as opposed to countless Protestants elsewhere.
The population of Geneva quadrupled under his leadership. People flocked to this city because they wanted to be oppressed by that cruel, theonomic government. ^_^
Geneva (though for the most part a secularist Godless city today) is still prospering from the vestiges of Calvin's influence.Link: Geneva under the theonomic leadership of John Calvin.
 
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Soyeong

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Theonomy, applied to a nation that has for the most part converted to and is being discipled by Christ is actually a freer society than we have today.
Most proponents of Theonomy are convinced that a true Libertarian and free society can only come when ruled by the precepts of God.
Opponents try to paint it as consisting of an oppressive and intrusive government. The truth is that compared to, say for example America today, it would much more liberal towards certain offenses.
If people steal, they would have to work to pay it of with interest instead being locked away in a brutal prison system.
Geneva under Calvin is lampooned by many Evangelicals today as being repressive and harsh. One heretic was burnt at the stake during his time as opposed to countless Protestants elsewhere.
The population of Geneva quadrupled under his leadership. People flocked to this city because they wanted to be oppressed by that cruel, theonomic government. ^_^
Geneva (though for the most part a secularist Godless city today) is still prospering from the vestiges of Calvin's influence.Link: Geneva under the theonomic leadership of John Calvin.

Psalms 119:145 I will walk in liberty, for I seek your precepts.
 
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JustAsIam77

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Theonomy, from theos (god) and nomos (law), is the idea that Mosaic law should be observed by modern societies. Theonomists reject the traditional Reformed belief that the civil laws of the Mosaic Law are no longer applicable.

Theonomy is legalism pure and simple.

As Paul stated in Galations 5, why put yourselves under a yoke of bondage to the Law again, Christ has set us free from the Law, otherwise grace is no more grace.
 
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Soyeong

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Theonomy, from theos (god) and nomos (law), is the idea that Mosaic law should be observed by modern societies. Theonomists reject the traditional Reformed belief that the civil laws of the Mosaic Law are no longer applicable.

Theonomy is legalism pure and simple.

As Paul stated in Galations 5, why put yourselves under a yolk of bondage to the Law again, Christ has set us free from the Law, otherwise grace is no more grace.

If a theonomist were saying that we needed to obey the Mosaic law in order to become saved, then I agree with you that it would be legalism and bondage, however, the law was never given for that purpose, and trying to become saved by keeping the law is in fact a legalistic perversion it. God did not save Israel out of bondage in Egypt to put them back under bondage to His law, but rather it was for freedom that He set them free. God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:145, James 1:25) and it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts in bondage. It can't be both transgression of the law and obedience to it as it was intended that put us in bondage. The freedom that we have in Messiah is the freedom from doing what God has revealed to be sin and the freedom to do what God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The Bible doesn't not say that Messiah gave himself to redeem us from the law, but to redeem us from lawlessness (Titus 2:14). Furthermore, if you also believe that the law was only given to Jews, then Messiah didn't need to come to free Gentiles from a law that they were never under in the first place.

John 1:16-17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

God's law is not opposed to God's grace - a house divided against itself cannot stand. Rather, according to these verses, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Messiah was added upon the grace of the law. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflections in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives it takes the form of obedience to His commands. Everything that grace brings in these verses is a description of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

So our salvation involves being redeemed from the penalty of our lawlessness, but it also involves being trained to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and being trained to renounce doing what God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless. So God's grace is not opposed to God's law, but rather it is what trains us by faith to live according to it. We are not to obey the law in order to become saved to become righteous, but rather we are to obey the law because we are being saved from lawlessness and because God has declared us to be righteous by faith. God has said that His commands are for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13), so if you believe that, then the way to live by faith is to live in obedience to His commands, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Living by faith does not refer to some other manner of living that is not in obedience to God's commands. So obedience to the law was never about what we legalistically earn in return, but rather has always been about demonstrating our love for God (John 14:15), demonstrating our faith in God to lead us into doing what is holy, righteous, and good, demonstrating our faith in God to lead us away from sin, and about growing in a relationship with God.
 
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stenerson

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Theonomy, from theos (god) and nomos (law), is the idea that Mosaic law should be observed by modern societies. Theonomists reject the traditional Reformed belief that the civil laws of the Mosaic Law are no longer applicable.

Theonomy is legalism pure and simple.

As Paul stated in Galations 5, why put yourselves under a yolk of bondage to the Law again, Christ has set us free from the Law, otherwise grace is no more grace.

It has nothing to do with the Galatian heresy. Theonomist that I been hearing, (chiefly those of American Vision) are dealing with how governments of countries that convert to Christ govern. What will be their basis for law, order and ethics? Will it be some form of "natural law" guided by the opinions of men? Will they act like Pentecostals and play it by ear, being "led by the spirit?"
Or will a converted, Godly society base their laws on clear principles of scripture?
They don't reject any traditional Reformed beliefs concerning the law.
The Reformers and the reformed catechisms dealt with "The Threefold uses of the Law." Link:Article by RC Sproul on the threefold uses of the Law
Why do most conservative Christians believe that murderers should be executed? How do they justify this belief?
 
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JM

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John Gill and Theonomy

In A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity, the Reformed Baptist scholar John Gill writes,

"It may be inquired, whether the judicial laws, or the laws respecting the Jewish polity, are now in force or not, and to be observed or not; which may be resolved by distinguishing between them; there were some that were peculiar to the state of the Jews, their continuance in the land of Canaan, and while their polity lasted, and until the coming of the Messiah, when they were to cease, as is clear from (Gen. 49:10), such as related to inheritances, and the alienation of them by marriage or otherwise; the restoration of them when sold at the year of jubilee; the marrying of a brother’s wife when he died without issue, &c. the design of which was, to keep the tribes distinct until the Messiah came, that it might be clearly known from what tribe he sprung.

"And there were others that were peculiarly suited to the natural temper and disposition of that people, who were covetous, cruel, and oppressive of the poor, froward and perverse, jealous and revengeful; hence the laws concerning the manumission of servants sold, at the end of the sixth year; the release of debts, and letting the land rest from tillage every seventh year; concerning lending on interest; leaving a corner in the field for the poor, and the forgotten sheaf;--and others concerning divorces, and the trial of a suspected wife, and the cities of refuge to flee to from the avenger of blood: these, with others, ceased when the Jewish polity did, and are not binding on other nations.

"But then there were other judicial laws, which were founded on the light of nature, on reason, and on justice and equity, and these remain in full force; and they must be wise as well as righteous laws, which were made by God himself, their King and Legislator, as they are said to be (Deut. 4:6,8).

"And they are, certainly, the best constituted and regulated governments that come nearest to the commonwealth of Israel, and the civil laws of it, which are of the kind last described; and where they are acted up unto, there what is said by Wisdom is most truly verified, "By me kings reign, and princes decree judgment;" and if these laws were more strictly attended to, which respect the punishment of offences, especially capital ones, things would be put upon a better footing than they are in some governments; and judges, in passing sentences, would be able to do that part of their office with more certainty and safety, and with a better conscience.

"And whereas the commonwealth of Israel was governed by these laws for many hundreds of years, and needed no other in their civil polity, when, in such a course of time, every case that ordinarily happens, must arise, and be brought into a court of judicature; I cannot but be of opinion, that a digest of civil laws might be made out of the Bible, the law of the Lord that is perfect, either as lying in express words in it, or to be deduced by the analogy of things and cases, and by just consequence, as would be sufficient for the government of any nation: and then there would be no need of so many law books, nor of so many lawyers; and perhaps there would be fewer law suits.

"However, we Christians, under whatsoever government we are, are directed to submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, and for conscience sake; even to everyone that is not contrary to common sense and reason, and to religion and conscience; (see Rom. 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:13,14)."

Yours in the Lord.
 
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