Theonomy in Debate

[JM]

I plan to watch it tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvCJEGM0WMw

 

[gord44]

What's the tale of the tape?

 

[abacabb3]

Theonomy is a gutting of the Gospel, may they be accursed.

 

[BryanW92]

I didn't watch the video, but I did look up theonomy. There's a lot of that on certain other forums of CF! Now I know what to call it.

 

[JM]

Joel did a great job explaining and defending theonomy, he even used John Gill to support the historic moorings in latter Puritanism. Gotta listen.

 

[gord44]

Seems kinda crazy no? Almost like a 'Christian' Sharia Law?

 

[JM]

Gotta listen to it before making up your mind.

 

[abacabb3]

I'll listen soon, but I don't see the compelling part of tacking on works of the Law.

 

[stenerson]

I know where I stand on the issue, but will listen to it this week.. I heard Jim White on the dividing line mention this debate.

 

[abacabb3]

I don't understand he appeal of Thenomy.

Instructive reasons:
-COnfuses people that following such laws makes them righteous
-Confuses people that Law has not been fulfilled in its entirety

Biblical reasons
-No indication in NT that it should be imposed
-Certain people who became Christians (former homosexuals, adulterers, and such in Cointh) would be executed before their conversion under this scheme

Historical Reasons
-Puritans were not Theonomists

Political Reasons
-For all practical purposes, the ship has sailed. The longer Christians push fr such nonsense, the more they empower secular humanists to punish us for our beliefs.

 

[JM]

One thing I think many find appealing is the continued use of Scripture for determining jurisprudence. The question is 'do we use old covenant jurisprudence or create a new philosophy to societal law?

 

[JM]

Anyone want to discuss this topic any further?

 

[stenerson]

Anyone want to discuss this topic any further?

Yes. I've been hearing these guys out on the issue.. That is , folk like Jeff Durbin, Joel McDurmon, Gary Demar, and the late Greg Bahnsen.
It seems their view of Theonomy goes hand in hand with their eschatology.. Their eschatology involving partial preterism and Post-millenialism.
They believe that on Christ's ascension all power and authority has been given to Him. They believe Christ will use that authority to subdue and make disciples of all nations through the gospel via His Church.
They don't teach, as I previously thought they did, that the Church is to accomplish this by Jihad, or Taliban tactics, but rather through the faithful proclamation of the gospel. Post-millenial eschatology concludes that the world for the most part, not just a small persecuted remnant here and there will turn to Christ, causing them to naturally create governments based on scriptural jurisprudence.
Theonomist don't believe Christians should appeal to some notion of inherent "natural law" but to the scriptures when arguing governance, laws and morality.
Like I said in another thread, It does have me rethinking some things.
Christ did promise that the Church, will destroy and tear down the gates of Hell. What that actually entails of course is in dispute among the different camps.
Many Post-millenialists are convinced that the Church's ineffectiveness in the world has much to do with their eschatological expectations. In other worlds, Evangelicals for the most part today believe that they are bound to lose, that is, to be a small, persecuted minority waiting desperately to be spirited away by the rapture. Or like the Amillenialist believe, to just be a small, chosen remnant from each nation.
Post-millenialists regard those views as pessi-millenielism. (pessimistic)
Bottom line, eschatological expectations and the interpretation of Christ's mandate to "disciple the nations" are the basis for Theonomy..
Personally I'm not totally sold on it, but by no means do I consider them Galatian heretics or legalists.
Concerning their soteriology most of them are solidly in the Reform camp.

 

[JM]

I found that so many untruthful statements have been made about Theonomy that it's hard to tell a stawman from what Theonomy teaches. Like New Covenant Theology, there really isn't one system of Theonomy and this adds to the difficulty of understanding it. I am very sympathetic to their cause and find my Historicism lines up much of the time with their understanding of faithfully preaching the Gospel to subdue evil and convert the world.

I believe everything Joel has to say here:

 

[stenerson]

I also agree with his statements there. Too much dualistic pietism in today's Evangelical circles which reminds of medieval monkery. Evangelicals often view their jobs and business for example as a hindrance to their spiritual life. As if kingdom work doesn't include the ordinary, but is mostly concerned with religious acts, such as passing out tracts, or fellowship.
In my past thinking, the re-establishment of the creation mandate to take dominion of the Earth will be a futuristic event when the eternal state (New Heavens and New Earth) comes. And that's probably true in the ultimate sense.
Like I said, been mulling these things over.
History has shown that Christians can effect and transform countries and regions.

 

[JM]

I also agree with his statements there. Too much dualistic pietism in today's Evangelical circles which reminds of medieval monkery. Evangelicals often view their jobs and business for example as a hindrance to their spiritual life. As if kingdom work doesn't include the ordinary, but is mostly concerned with religious acts, such as passing out tracts, or fellowship.
In my past thinking, the re-establishment of the creation mandate to take dominion of the Earth will be a futuristic event when the eternal state (New Heavens and New Earth) comes. And that's probably true in the ultimate sense.
Like I said, been mulling these things over.
History has shown that Christians can effect and transform countries and regions.

Dang, you are starting to live up to your avatar!

So very true. Old Spurgeon lamented that people thought smoking a cigar or having a beer was evil instead of "whatsoever you do, do unto the glory of the Lord." People today function as non-trinitarian gnostics.

Have a listen to Restoring America podcast. I'm two episodes in and loving it.

 

[stenerson]

Dang, you are starting to live up to your avatar!

Have a listen to Restoring America podcast. I'm two episodes in and loving it.

Cool! Will be working on my truck for a few hours and will give it a listen.

 

[JM]

My sudden revelation as I listened to the podcasts:

Theonomy has the same appeal that Dispensationalism does, it makes people feel like they have a deep knowledge of something complicated but!, it's really just a system layered upon scripture.

JMO

 

[Soyeong]

I don't understand he appeal of Thenomy.

Instructive reasons:
-COnfuses people that following such laws makes them righteous

The law was never given by God as instructions for how to become righteous, but rather it was given as instruction for how someone who is righteous is to walk in righteousness. The rephrase Ephesians 2:8-10, we are declared righteous by grace through faith not by doing what is righteous, but for the purpose of doing what is righteous by grace through faith.

-Confuses people that Law has not been fulfilled in its entirety

Romans 15:18-19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;

When these verse say that Paul fulfilled the gospel, do you think it is saying that Paul did away with it or that he fully taught obedience to it? Similarly, we should not understand Messiah's statement in Matthew 5:17 that he came to fulfill the law as meaning that he came to do away with it, but that he came to fully teach how to understand and obey it, which is what he then proceeded to do in the rest of the chapter. In Galatians 5:14, it says that love fulfills the entire law, so if you believe that Messiah fulfilled the law so that we don't have to obey it, then that is akin to saying that he loved God and his neighbor so that we don't have to.

Biblical reasons
-No indication in NT that it should be imposed
-Certain people who became Christians (former homosexuals, adulterers, and such in Cointh) would be executed before their conversion under this scheme

While I think that the Mosaic law should be followed, I don't fully qualify as a theonomist because I don't think it should be imposed. God does not take away our choice of whether to serve Him. Furthermore, Messiah died to pay the penalty of the sins of the world, so we should not enforce a penalty that has already been paid. There is no condemnation for those who abide in Messiah (Romans 8:1), but does not mean that we should submit to God's law (Romans 8:7), but on the contrary, those who are in Messiah ought to walk in the same way he walked, which means following his example of obedience (1 John 2:3-6).

 

[stenerson]

My sudden revelation as I listened to the podcasts:

Theonomy has the same appeal that Dispensationalism does, it makes people feel like they have a deep knowledge of something complicated but!, it's really just a system layered upon scripture.

JMO

The restoring America podcasts?
Frankly what use is Theonomy in a culture that ridicules and denies the Christian worldview.
I have no issue with it in principle. That is, if God brings a huge revival to a nation, or nations where the masses turn to Christ. In such a case governments, economics would and should be guided by scriptural principles. I haven't gotten to much into Theonomy, but have spent more time mulling over the eschatological presuppositions that they hold. The expectation of a ultimate victory of the Gospel over the nations where the bulk of people are converted (post-millenialism).
I'm not convinced Theonomy is a system layered upon scripture. For now I give them the benefit of the doubt that it is a system of governance, education, economics etc. based on and earnestly seeking the guidance of scripture.

Tulip is not enough... City on a hill, Geneva, Calvin, Theology as not just good news to individuals, but to the nations. Sermon/podcast Bulgarian missionary Bojidar Marinov.