Theology of Recovery

[madison1101]

Hi Hammster

I will try my best to answer that one!

I do not put the AA 12 step programme (including the Big Book or the 12 Steps & 12 Traditions) on the same level as Holy Scripture. I see Scripture as always being the central authority for the Christian faith. Therefore I believe all Christians need to read the Bible and church has an important role as it is a place where the Bible is taught and preached. That is why I both go to church and to AA meetings.

Although I do not view the 12 steps as being "scripture" or "doctrine", they nevertheless give a useful summary of how a Christian should behave. It covers aspects such as humility, the acknowledgement and confession of wrongs, the willingness to put things right and to live life on the best possible terms with everyone. This it breaks down into simple steps.

The problem with alcoholics is that they very often want instant happiness without knowing what it truly means to be happy, they sometimes demand instant reconciliation with family and friends without fully understanding their part in breaking down those relationships, they can be prone to holding onto their resentments feeling that they are fully justified. The steps offer practical solutions to these problems and are structured in a way that alcoholics in recovery can work through them at their own time and pace.

Gray, you did a terrific job in explaining the practicality of the steps in alcoholic recovery.

I once heard someone summarize the steps in the following way.

1. Find God -Steps 1, 2, and 3.
2. Clean house-Steps 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
3. Help others- Steps 10, 11, and 12.

God bless.

Trish

 

[Hammster]

Hammster,
We part company here in what we believe the goal of AA should be. As a believer, my personal goal should be holiness and perfection. But, who am I, in this country, to say what anyone's goal should be? Who are you to impose your personal beliefs on an organization that does not have any doctrine or creed? AA never claimed to be a religious organization. AA's goals are AA's goals. I can be a part of AA, and still hold to my own personal goals. As a person who has struggled with alcohol, sobriety, for me, is just a beginning. I cannot achieve perfection in any way if I am not sober. So, AA, is a means to an end. Churches have different goals and purposes than support groups and self-help groups. Would you tell someone in Weight Watchers that the goal of Weight Watchers should be holiness and perfection, and that they should only use the gospel for weight control? What about someone in a diabetes support group?

I gave those as extreme examples on how I perceive your logic. As a member of AA, I work on the 12 steps to achieve sobriety, and (for me personally) to work toward holiness and Godliness. The beauty of AA is that I can "Take what I like and leave the rest." I do not have to have AA, as a collective body, have the goal of perfection and holiness for me to work toward my goal. I also do not have to have AA agree with me on how to interpret Higher Power.

Concerning the confusion about the end of my post, I was trying to say that it is okay for churches to exclude 12 step programs from using their facilities if they choose to do so. How an organization chooses to use their facilities is their business, and I have no qualms one way or the other.

I'm not trying to tell AA how to be. I am trying to get across how I think that Christians should deal with sin problems. But since AA keeps getting touted as based on Christian principles and scripture, and due to the type of thread this is, I am pointing out where I think AA is deficient and how I believe that the gospel is sufficient.

 

[Hammster]

Not the gospel being shallow, but this method that says all you need is to concentrate on the gospel and God will take away the desire.

Have I said that I thought that the Gospel would take away the desire to drink? If so, then I was misunderstood because I certainly don't think that. Maybe that is where the disconnect is. Maybe you all think that I believe that the Gospel is the miracle pill that just makes everything better. If so, then you haven't been reading all of my posts. Or I have not communicated well enough.

 

[madison1101]

I'm not trying to tell AA how to be. I am trying to get across how I think that Christians should deal with sin problems. But since AA keeps getting touted as based on Christian principles and scripture, and due to the type of thread this is, I am pointing out where I think AA is deficient and how I believe that the gospel is sufficient.

Hammster, I think I pointed out how I agree that sin should be dealt with, AND how the steps of AA guide a person into confession and repentance. In fact, I believe the AA literature addresses the sin issue at a much deeper level than most Christians would. In a lot of Christian literature, and sermons, I have seen the more obvious sins, like the sexual and assaultive ones addressed up one side and down the other, BUT, rarely have I heard or read about gossip, resentments, and the ones that deal with the heart attitude in Christian circles. Yet, a study of the AA literature, will show that when a person does their fourth step, they are to address bitterness and resentments first and foremost. In Christian circles, I have not seen too much encouragement of confession to another person, except in the Catholic traditions. Yet, in the fifth step, an AA person is encouraged to take their step four list and discuss it, in detail, with another person, and people are encouraged to do this with their minister, or spiritual advisor if they are more comfortable with that. This idea is discussed in the book of James, where he says confess your faults one to another, (paraphrased.)

I believe that both the Church and AA are given a bum rap by a lot of people. I believe both are able to meet a lot of needs that people have. I also believe that with both, you get out of them what you put into them. I also believe that with both, except on doctrine with the Church, you can take what you like, and leave the rest. Or, in simpler terms, "Live and Let Live." The Church has a lot of opportunities to minister to alcoholics, and many churches in my past have dropped the ball terribly. That, I believe, is one of the key reasons AA has been appealing to so many, because the Church, in a lot of areas, has not ministered the true Gospel.

 

[Hupomone10]

Have I said that I thought that the Gospel would take away the desire to drink? If so, then I was misunderstood because I certainly don't think that. Maybe that is where the disconnect is. Maybe you all think that I believe that the Gospel is the miracle pill that just makes everything better. If so, then you haven't been reading all of my posts. Or I have not communicated well enough.

I'm glad to know you don't believe that God just takes the desire to drink away. Yes, it did appear to me that you believed something like the gospel was the miracle pill that makes alcoholism go away. If that's not true, I apologize.

If you wish to tell alcoholics that the gospel is sufficient for complete recovery from alcoholism, ok. I believe in the scriptures; far above man's spin on the scriptures.

How about another topic? How about faith. What part does faith play in the alcohol recovery process?

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, I think I pointed out how I agree that sin should be dealt with, AND how the steps of AA guide a person into confession and repentance. In fact, I believe the AA literature addresses the sin issue at a much deeper level than most Christians would. In a lot of Christian literature, and sermons, I have seen the more obvious sins, like the sexual and assaultive ones addressed up one side and down the other, BUT, rarely have I heard or read about gossip, resentments, and the ones that deal with the heart attitude in Christian circles. Yet, a study of the AA literature, will show that when a person does their fourth step, they are to address bitterness and resentments first and foremost. In Christian circles, I have not seen too much encouragement of confession to another person, except in the Catholic traditions. Yet, in the fifth step, an AA person is encouraged to take their step four list and discuss it, in detail, with another person, and people are encouraged to do this with their minister, or spiritual advisor if they are more comfortable with that. This idea is discussed in the book of James, where he says confess your faults one to another, (paraphrased.)

I believe that both the Church and AA are given a bum rap by a lot of people. I believe both are able to meet a lot of needs that people have. I also believe that with both, you get out of them what you put into them. I also believe that with both, except on doctrine with the Church, you can take what you like, and leave the rest. Or, in simpler terms, "Live and Let Live." The Church has a lot of opportunities to minister to alcoholics, and many churches in my past have dropped the ball terribly. That, I believe, is one of the key reasons AA has been appealing to so many, because the Church, in a lot of areas, has not ministered the true Gospel.

Thanks for that response. Let me ask a little deeper question and see where this goes. Based one AA literature, and not the way a Christian might pour their own meaning into it, what is sin?

 

[Hammster]

I'm glad to know you don't believe that God just takes the desire to drink away. Yes, it did appear to me that you believed something like the gospel was the miracle pill that makes alcoholism go away. If that's not true, I apologize.

If you wish to tell alcoholics that the gospel is sufficient for complete recovery from alcoholism, ok. I believe in the scriptures; far above man's spin on the scriptures.

How about another topic? How about faith. What part does faith play in the alcohol recovery process?

Granted, this is an over-simplified answer, but it is the same as for any other sin issue.

 

[madison1101]

Thanks for that response. Let me ask a little deeper question and see where this goes. Based one AA literature, and not the way a Christian might pour their own meaning into it, what is sin?

While I cannot put my hands on the exact places, I do believe my memory is fairly accurate in this regard. I have seen where it refers to the Seven Deadly Sins, as in the Old Testament. I have also heard where the Character Defects in Step Four area also sins.

Trish

 

[Hammster]

While I cannot put my hands on the exact places, I do believe my memory is fairly accurate in this regard. I have seen where it refers to the Seven Deadly Sins, as in the Old Testament. I have also heard where the Character Defects in Step Four area also sins.

Trish

I was inquiring more into what AA says sin is as opposed to what they give as examples of sin.

 

[Hupomone10]

Faith: Food for thought or discussion:
"…The directions that are generally given (in the church, on overcoming sin) amount to about this: "Take your sins in detail, resolve to abstain from them, and fight against them, if need be with prayer and fasting, until you have overcome them. Set your will firmly against a relapse into sin, pray and struggle, and resolve that you will not fall, and persist in this until you form the habit of obedience and break up all your sinful habits." To be sure it is generally added: "In this conflict you must not depend upon your own strength, but pray for the help of God." In a word, much of the teaching, both of the pulpit and the press, really amounts to this: Sanctification is by works, and not by faith.

Now it is important to say right here that all such efforts are worse than useless, and not infrequently result in delusion… Do we eradicate selfishness by resolution? No, indeed. We may suppress this or that expression or manifestation of selfishness by resolving not to do this or that, and praying and struggling against it. We may resolve upon an outward obedience, and work ourselves up to the letter of an obedience to God's commandments. But to eradicate selfishness from the breast by resolution is an absurdity… All our battling with sin in the outward life, by the force of resolution, only ends in making us whited sepulchres…
All such efforts to overcome sin are utterly futile, and as unscriptural as they are futile. The Bible expressly teaches us that sin is overcome by faith in Christ. "He is the way, the truth, and the life."

Every victory over sin is by faith in Christ; and whenever the mind is diverted from Christ, by resolving and fighting against sin, whether we are aware of it or not, we are acting in our own strength, rejecting the help of Christ, and are under a delusion. Nothing but the life and energy of the Spirit of Christ within us can save us from sin, and trust is the uniform and universal condition of the working of this saving energy within us. How deeply rooted in the heart of man is self-righteousness and self-dependence? So deeply that one of the hardest lessons for the human heart to learn is to renounce self- dependence and trust wholly in Christ.” – Charles Finney

 

[madison1101]

I was inquiring more into what AA says sin is as opposed to what they give as examples of sin.

It might take me a little while to find the exact thing I have in mind to be sure it is from the AA literature, and not my mind. I will try to find it tonight. Bear with me.

Sorry I can't be more forthwith...I am just extremely busy today.

trish

 

[Hupomone10]

OK, I am overruled. (regarding the faith discussion)

I want to ask the obvious question.

What is sin?
I'm looking both for a scriptural answer and a practical answer understandable to the alcoholic unschooled in our Christian phrases.

Bill Wilson must have had some rudimentary understanding of this concept because in the testimony of how he came to sobriety, when describing his encounter with God he said "I ruthlessly faced my sins."

 

[Hammster]

OK, I am overruled. (regarding the faith discussion)

I want to ask the obvious question.

What is sin?
I'm looking both for a scriptural answer and a practical answer understandable to the alcoholic unschooled in our Christian phrases.

Bill Wilson must have had some rudimentary understanding of this concept because in the testimony of how he came to sobriety, when describing his encounter with God he said "I ruthlessly faced my sins."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.

Pretty much anything that ISN'T this is sin. So using alcohol to deal with your problems is equivalent to having another god before God.

 

[madison1101]

OK, I am overruled. (regarding the faith discussion)

I want to ask the obvious question.

What is sin?
I'm looking both for a scriptural answer and a practical answer understandable to the alcoholic unschooled in our Christian phrases.

Bill Wilson must have had some rudimentary understanding of this concept because in the testimony of how he came to sobriety, when describing his encounter with God he said "I ruthlessly faced my sins."

Hupomone: Might do well to start a new thread for the faith discussion. I would be happy to get involved on a new thread for a discussion of faith and sobriety.

Back to sin. My personal definition is that sin is failing to obey God's Word concerning my personal behavior. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me." God has rules for how we should live. Without Christ, we have no hope of being sinless. With Christ in my life, I have the Holy Spirit's power in my life to resist temptation, and not sin.

"7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;" John 16:7-9


Basically, these verses can be used for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th steps.



As for a Biblical definition of sin, I cannot find a specific verse, except to say sin is when we violate God's law.


Hope this helps.

 

[gray100]

What is sin?

In the context of Mark 12:28-31, where Jesus illustrated that love is the fulfilment of the law, I think that 'sin' can be defined as an attitude and lifestyle which is not based on love, such as lying, cheating, stealing, envy, slander, greed, apathy, pride, and selfishness. It has more to do with one's attitude towards God and towards their neighbour, rather than failing to comply with specific details of the law.

See also:
Romans 13:10
Matthew 7:12
Galatians 5:14
James 2:8

 

[Hammster]

I would still be interested in what the official AA view is on what sin is.

 

[Hupomone10]

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me. Pretty much anything that ISN'T this is sin. So using alcohol to deal with your problems is equivalent to having another god before God.

Forgive me, but I'm careful about classifying as idolatry sins that aren't referred to as idolatry. Otherwise He would only need one commandment. I believe what God said about the flesh and our fleshly nature is bad enough; and we don't have to make it sound worse by calling it idolatry. I let God call idolatry idolatry, and just plain "flesh" as flesh. Having said that, Paul does equate greed with idolatry in two places. This isn't aimed at you, but rather the culmination of a previous discussion at another time where I had to do some study on it.

Although I don't drink at all, and can name 5 reasons why no Christian should have a need to drink, I class drinking-less-than-drunkenness along with smoking, eating things we don't need (candy, etc), laziness, etc.

This is strong, but it's good:
[FONT=&quot]"What is sin? Sin is saying, “I renounce the God who made me. I disallow His right to govern me. I care not what He says to me, what commandments He has given, nor how earnestly He implores me. I prefer self-indulgence to His approval. I am indifferent to all He has done to and for me. His blessings and gifts move me not. I am going to be lord of myself.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is the excellency of God and the infinite perfections of His glorious being which renders Him worthy of and entitled to our supreme love and fullest obedience. Our failure to love so lovable an Object as the God of love is that which chiefly renders us to blame and is the crime of crimes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The evil of sin arises from our obligation to love and serve Him who is infinitely glorious. The language of every sinner’s heart is, “I care not what God requires; I’m going to have my own way. I care not what God’s claims are upon me. I refuse to submit to His authority. I care not what He has threatened to do to those that defy Him; I will not be intimidated. His eyes may be upon me, but I am not going to be restrained thereby. I care not what He loves and what He hates; I shall please myself.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But when the Holy Spirit enlightens and convicts a soul, his language is, “Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]True repentance issues from a realization in the heart, produced therein by the Holy Spirit, of the sinfulness of sin, of the awfulness of ignoring the claims of God and defying His authority. It is therefore a holy horror and hatred of sin, a deep sorrow for it, an acknowledgment of it before God, and a complete heart forsaking of it." - A.W. Pink[/FONT]

 

[Hammster]

Probably a side issue, but how is that different from idolatry? In actuality, if we could get the first commandment right, we wouldn't need the other nine.

 

[Hupomone10]

Yes, I think getting the first one right would have a tremendous effect on our behavior regarding the others. Going our own way, "preferring self-indulgence to His approval" is definitely not revering God as God in my life. I'm just trying to let scripture say what it says and mean what it means. I've found that for myself, anyway, telling myself that something is idolatry, although that's supposed to increase my desire not to do it, usually doesn't have that effect. I think that's because the energy of the flesh, even when pointed in the right direction or by a right motivation, is still the energy of the flesh. Only faith in Christ working within me and walking in the Spirit by faith helps me, especially in those smaller sins that my mind just won't identify as idolatry. The Spirit can overcome any sin, big idolatrous ones or small ones that I tend to tolerate; and He does so by the power of Christ rather than the power of sanctified self. I did a small study on this; I'll try to look it up.

I hope I can say this in mixed company; but this came up because a gentleman tried to argue with me that masturbation was idolatry and therefore was demonic worship. I don't think it's that, even though still wrong because of being the flesh nature trying to please itself. The flesh is flesh, regardless of whether idolatry or not; and anything done solely from my flesh, the Holy Spirit can work against. Hope that isn't too crude; and apologize if it is.

 

[Hupomone10]

Hupomone: Might do well to start a new thread for the faith discussion. I would be happy to get involved on a new thread for a discussion of faith and sobriety.

I can wait on faith. In my mind, faith stands very important in the category of "theology of recovery", but I'll save it a while. I think Hammster wants to get at what AA teaches concerning sin.

Back to sin. My personal definition is that sin is failing to obey God's Word concerning my personal behavior. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me." God has rules for how we should live. Without Christ, we have no hope of being sinless. With Christ in my life, I have the Holy Spirit's power in my life to resist temptation, and not sin.

As for a Biblical definition of sin, I cannot find a specific verse, except to say sin is when we violate God's law.

Two scriptures I know of are:
Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Therefore, it is seen that sin is anytime we morally fall short of the measuring line of God's glory and moral holiness.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." The Amplified Bible translates lawlessness as "the breaking, violating of God's law by transgression or neglect--being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will." It is basically self-will, following a life of self, based on self's standards, self's desires, self's feelings, whether morally bad or morally good they are still self-oriented.

To this agrees the basic verse of the Old Testament that I think sums up our sinful behavior:
Isaiah 53:6 "All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him."
I believe based on what I read and studied while in the organization, that AA is basically a self-help group rather than a group aimed at salvation of the soul. They neither desire to or deal with sin as a theological issue, but rather deal with sins and sin in its outworkings and in its essential nature: which is self, or self-will. The literature has much to say about self-will, and it's consequences. This is clearest seen in Step 4. I'll stop for now.