Theological Considerations of Personhood

[redleghunter]

in addition to what i said to @redleghunter, this would be applicable only if there were normal/good enough conditions of life for all people that were born in this world, but unfortunately it was not so, i am also in favor of life, not of sin and death, but there need be normal/good enough conditions of life for everyone so that all who are born in the world can have normal/good enough lives here, because many people have existed in conditions of "living" death - yes, i say (unfortunately) "existed", not "lived", which is why Jesus and His true disciples presented in the Bible worked for overall peace, salvation and life's provision, because there is a need for such religious worshipers/spiritual servants to work for that so as there to be normal/good conditions of life for everyone, otherwise abortion could, God forbid, turn out to be inevitable...

Blessings

What is normal and good enough?

About one million abortions are performed each year just in the US. Those are elective abortions. The poorest in our country have access to medical care, food and shelter by the government and charities providing a living.

 

[toLiJC]

What is normal and good enough?

About one million abortions are performed each year just in the US. Those are elective abortions. The poorest in our country have access to medical care, food and shelter by the government and charities providing a living.

and if it is so as many religious worshipers have believed that the irreligious and non-christian people will go to hell, then what's the point in saving the lives of those fetuses if they will be and remain irreligious and non-christian to the end of their lives?!, so there must be some basis for what we do, and, as i said before, i am in favor of life, not in favor of sin and death, but we have to work for overall salvation in the true One, otherwise there will be no better conditions of life for many people

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

I was looking for the exegesis of the verses. You provided an eisegesis.

The first passage has to do with ungrateful children. Which has no bearing on when human life or personhood begins.

The second verse deals with eschatology.

Not seeing the connection with the OP.

The greater evil is when one decides the fate of another.

Which is worse? Poverty or forced death.

See how that discussion goes?

and what should (it) be done?!, how can there be a resolution if only too few people work for betterment?! - may at least the true One make a miracle and resolve the problem as soon as possible!

Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

and if it is so as many religious worshipers have believed that the irreligious and non-christian people will go to hell, then what's the point in saving the lives of those fetuses if they will be and remain irreligious and non-christian to the end of their lives?!, so there must be some basis for what we do, and, as i said before, i am in favor of life, not in favor of sin and death, but we have to work for overall salvation in the true One, otherwise there will be no better conditions of life for many people

Blessings

Not your call not mine. No where are we commanded by Christ to kill to ease the suffering of others. The Good Samaritan tended to the beaten man. He did not mercy kill him.

 

[redleghunter]

I think a visual might help with some of the questions.

 

[redleghunter]

Now a TED video, conception to birth.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

are we better than him, or would we be better than him if we lived in his time?!

Solomon was a very wise man, especially at the beginning of his reign, but he made a huge mistake when he accumulated 700 wives and 300 concubines, something kings were advised by God do avoid.

These women, many of them of pagan origin, succeeded in inducing Solomon to worship pagan gods in addition to the worship of Jehovah. This is why I said that it was not safe to base our view of the sanctity of human life on things that he said when he was old.

 

[toLiJC]

Not your call not mine. No where are we commanded by Christ to kill to ease the suffering of others. The Good Samaritan tended to the beaten man. He did not mercy kill him.

i am in favor of life, may there be normal/good life for everyone at any time from now on, of course, according to the will of the true Lord God!, Amen!, but i don't think people who have been compelled to abort their babies are guilty of being compelled to abort them...

Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

i am in favor of life, may there be normal/good life for everyone at any time from now on, of course, according to the will of the true Lord God!, Amen!, but i don't think people who have been compelled to abort their babies are guilty of being compelled to abort them...

Blessings

Women who are forced to have abortions are victims as well.

 

[toLiJC]

Solomon was a very wise man, especially at the beginning of his reign, but he made a huge mistake when he accumulated 700 wives and 300 concubines, something kings were advised by God do avoid.

These women, many of them of pagan origin, succeeded in inducing Solomon to worship pagan gods in addition to the worship of Jehovah. This is why I said that it was not safe to base our view of the sanctity of human life on things that he said when he was old.

you are right about the danger of idolatrous influence, but Solomon had been a true prophet of the true God after all, and i don't see many modern religious worshipers being better than him, even if he had many wives

Blessings

 

[Nic Samojluk]

"Life" does NOT begin with ANY GENERATION following the first, it simply flows from one generation to the next, in the blood provided by the process that is found constant since spoken into being by God Himself.

Yes, but the life of every individual begins at the moment of conception when a new DNA is created.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

I think a visual might help with some of the questions.

It calls the sperm cell "half a life."
What actually happens is it becomes half of another cell, half of a zygote. An ALIVE human cell.

But to call this "a life" is to beg the question.
(It is life, it is not a human life.)

And having unique DNA no more makes it a human (being) than the arm of a person possessing the genetics of a person makes it a person in itself.

 

[toLiJC]

Women who are forced to have abortions are victims as well.

not only the women forced to abort, but also people that were compelled to abort were victims - victims of the system of sin and death, it is important to be able to put ourselves in the place of our neighbor/cohabitant to see what it is to be in their place

Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

not only the women forced to abort, but also people that were compelled to abort were victims - victims of the system of sin and death, it is important to be able to put ourselves in the place of our neighbor/cohabitant to see what it is to be in their place

Blessings

Indeed. Even the non Nazis who ran the death camps or their families would be killed were victims to the evil.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Now a TED video, conception to birth.

Provide a transcription if you want us to deal in a textual fashion, i.e. here.

 

[toLiJC]

Indeed. Even the non Nazis who ran the death camps or their families would be killed were victims to the evil.

i don't dare condemn them to suffer, but in the case of this thread's main topic, i talked about people who have been compelled to abort their babies because of very unfavorable/bad conditions for life

Blessings

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Title: Theological considerations of personhood

The abortion debate for Christians sometimes hinges on the term 'personhood.' We acknowledge the biology of a human life beginning at conception, however, is this human life a 'person' in the sense of having a soul?

If your view is 'yes we are human beings, a person, at conception with a soul' then please provide your Biblical, Church, and/or historic Christian positions for such.

If your view is 'no a human life is not a person with a soul at conception, then please provide your Biblical, Church, and/or historic Christian positions when this does occur.

OP parameters: Opinions are welcome of course as this is a forum discussion. I do ask if a claim is made to please substantiate the claim (provide either the historic, church, Biblical evidence).

Again, this is a thread to address the theological aspects of the pro-life and abortion debate.

Finally, as a Christian only area of the forum, I ask we all apply Christian charity and not personally attack a poster and not attack a particular Church or Denomination. We are all above this, or should be. Let's be respectful please.

I will once again post the Psalms passages which I believe back up my view that one has a soul at conception...
Psalm 22:9-10:
Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

You wouldn't say that God is your God unless you had a soul with a spirit who claims Him as God.

Psalm 51:5-6:
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

In the passage above we see sin and faith begin upon conception.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Hi RLH, thanks for starting this thread I'll start off with something simple by Keith Green's wife that I've quoted here in the past:

A baby is cradled / carried in the womb of it's mother, to grow and be nurtured until birth. Each baby is a wholly separate person from it's mother: With different DNA, different fingerprints, with possibly a different blood type or the opposite sex. The baby is a person living within a person and not "the mother's body". -- Melody Green
​

Yours and His,
David

Luke 1
39 Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,
40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 “And how has it happened to me, that the 'mother' of my Lord would come to me?
44 “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
45 “And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”
.​

Hi David,
Certainly the fetus is NOT the pregnant woman's body, and one would have to be close to looney to think so, i.e. it is a STRAW MAN, not something anybody is arguing for.
And to call them "mother" and "baby" without having proven that is to beg the question.

As to what the unique DNA shows, see my recent post #135.

Please note in the video posted at #129: "The fetus' continual movement in the womb is necessary for muscular and skeletal growth."
This movement would not be always of the same strength; sometimes "kicking" may seem like "leaping" to the imagination of the woman who CANNOT SEE what it is. It had to be very much a construction of Elizabeth's mind construing what was experienced by her as "leaped in my womb for joy." Certainly one can agree SHE was likely joyful, and THAT JOY is the truth of v. 44.
That it was at the same time as the salutation of Mary could be only a coincidence - Scripture does not indicate it was not. The "as soon as" or "when" merely indicates they happened at the same time, and is in fact NO CLAIM that there was any kind of causation involved.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Title: Theological considerations of personhood

The abortion debate for Christians sometimes hinges on the term 'personhood.' We acknowledge the biology of a human life beginning at conception, however, is this human life a 'person' in the sense of having a soul?

If your view is 'yes we are human beings, a person, at conception with a soul' then please provide your Biblical, Church, and/or historic Christian positions for such.

If your view is 'no a human life is not a person with a soul at conception, then please provide your Biblical, Church, and/or historic Christian positions when this does occur.

OP parameters: Opinions are welcome of course as this is a forum discussion. I do ask if a claim is made to please substantiate the claim (provide either the historic, church, Biblical evidence).

Again, this is a thread to address the theological aspects of the pro-life and abortion debate.

Finally, as a Christian only area of the forum, I ask we all apply Christian charity and not personally attack a poster and not attack a particular Church or Denomination. We are all above this, or should be. Let's be respectful please.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (ESV)--
“Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:15-16 (NIV)--
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.”

The Sixth Commandment covers unborn babies. Unborn babies are viewed as persons. Moreover, no Hebrew woman would ever think of killing her unborn baby. To be barren was one of the worst things for a woman to endure (Gen. 17:15-16; 25:21; 30:1; 1 Sam. 1:2-10; Ps. 113:9; 127:3-5; Luke 1:7; 23:29; Gal. 4:27; Heb. 11:11). To kill an “inheritance from the Lord” would have been unthinkable, so taboo as to be not worth mentioning. Except ... in these faithless days we must mention it.

The Bible attributes self-consciousness to preborn babies, something that modern medicine has studied and acknowledged. Jacob and Esau “struggled together within” their mother’s womb (Gen. 25:22). The New Testament offers a similar glimpse into prenatal consciousness: “And it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb” (Luke 1:41). “Struggling” and “leaping” are the result consciousness, and most certainly of human life and worth. Jacob and Esau fighting inside the womb are indicative of their continued fighting outside the womb. And John the Baptist still in the womb leaps in reaction to Mary’s pregnancy.

Then there’s the case law of Exodus 21:22-25 where two men struggle and a pregnant woman is struck. She goes into labor prematurely and gives birth. “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child. . .” (Ex. 21:22).

I could go on and on... the scriptures are very clear about this issue.

 

[redleghunter]

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (ESV)--
“Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139:15-16 (NIV)--
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.”

The Sixth Commandment covers unborn babies. Unborn babies are viewed as persons. Moreover, no Hebrew woman would ever think of killing her unborn baby. To be barren was one of the worst things for a woman to endure (Gen. 17:15-16; 25:21; 30:1; 1 Sam. 1:2-10; Ps. 113:9; 127:3-5; Luke 1:7; 23:29; Gal. 4:27; Heb. 11:11). To kill an “inheritance from the Lord” would have been unthinkable, so taboo as to be not worth mentioning. Except ... in these faithless days we must mention it.

The Bible attributes self-consciousness to preborn babies, something that modern medicine has studied and acknowledged. Jacob and Esau “struggled together within” their mother’s womb (Gen. 25:22). The New Testament offers a similar glimpse into prenatal consciousness: “And it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb” (Luke 1:41). “Struggling” and “leaping” are the result consciousness, and most certainly of human life and worth. Jacob and Esau fighting inside the womb are indicative of their continued fighting outside the womb. And John the Baptist still in the womb leaps in reaction to Mary’s pregnancy.

Then there’s the case law of Exodus 21:22-25 where two men struggle and a pregnant woman is struck. She goes into labor prematurely and gives birth. “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child. . .” (Ex. 21:22).

I could go on and on... the scriptures are very clear about this issue.

Thank you for your contribution. I would add that the ancient Hebrew approach to offspring had a lot to do with survival. The more children the more hands to plow, shepherd the flocks, expand family land holdings.