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Theodicy argument failure?

Jane_the_Bane

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Nothing, except his love for us, and his gift for us


so we'd have no free choice. Choices have consequences.

What about choices that seriously infringe upon the freedom and well-being of another? Few people want to be robbed, or raped, or murdered, and their free will is seriously impaired by the actions of their attacker.

Weighing these two against each other, it seems only reasonable to restrict the free will of the culprit to protect the free will of the potential victim.
 
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Montalban

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What about choices that seriously infringe upon the freedom and well-being of another? Few people want to be robbed, or raped, or murdered, and their free will is seriously impaired by the actions of their attacker.

Weighing these two against each other, it seems only reasonable to restrict the free will of the culprit to protect the free will of the potential victim.

That's it! The very problem is 'how's that my choice'?

You want God to infringe on people's choices so no harm comes to them now you want God to infringe on OTHER people's choices so no harm comes to you?

You're right. I don't choose to be murdered. But then God's not affecting MY choice.

Are you saying then God should limit other people's choices to harm others?
 
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Eudaimonist

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Are you saying then God should limit other people's choices to harm others?

Would be nice. I can't imagine why I would want people to be able to rob, rape, murder, or otherwise commit acts of aggression, or even unintentional harm, on other people.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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hikersong

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What about choices that seriously infringe upon the freedom and well-being of another? Few people want to be robbed, or raped, or murdered, and their free will is seriously impaired by the actions of their attacker.

Weighing these two against each other, it seems only reasonable to restrict the free will of the culprit to protect the free will of the potential victim.

Absolutely. Unclear only if you're living in a fantasy world bearing no resemblance to the one we actually inhabit.

And the argument against it is that God is wanting people who do what is right without the need of a policeman (see Jesus on the spirit and the letter of the law) and that he all-knowingly allows suffering because it assists in identifying the people of the Spirit, from the people of the Law.

In this scenario God wants people who are loving and do right because it is in their nature. This sounds great, and I would argue that it can and does happen naturally with a healthy upbringing. But the argument of a divine global plan has many, many holes in terms of allowing for a God who is in any sense loving. The main points against it are:

1. There is absolutely no evidence that it works in any global sense. The supposed evidence is, allegedly, the Christians, who are clearly no better as a group than any other. Some might argue that there is something called a "real" christian, the "real" church (of which they are of course members). Unfortunately this "evidence" is only available to those on the inside. Or after we die. Even though there have been groups of christians, and individuals, who have had a positive impact on our world, the same can be said for many other groups and individuals.

So though there is a whole realm of evidence to show that benevolent policing, when carried out properly, does allow good behaviour and attitudes to thrive in an environment of relative freedom, as Jane has quite clearly shown, there is none to show that the other one, God's master plan, even exists, let alone is working.

2. If it is working on any level, it is working in an invisible way, and probably only with a tiny minority of people. We are left with a God who has created a world in which many people suffer to benefit the few. Whether this suffering is temporal or eternal is almost irrelevant to this argument. Such a God cannot be described as loving in any way that humans would understand of the term...even humans like Paul who wrote 1 Corinthian 13 supposedly about the sort of Love that God had, and humans should have.

I have a lot more sympathy with people who see faith as a personal matter and the whole suffering issue as a mystery, than I do with those who try to use some sort of perverted "logic" to explain the unknowable. Maybe our universe does have some purpose that we will one day understand. In the meantime let's have the dignity and humility to be silent about what we cannot know, and the pragmatism to work with what we can.
 
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hikersong

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Are you saying then God should limit other people's choices to harm others?

Would be nice. I can't imagine why I would want people to be able to rob, rape, murder, or otherwise commit acts of aggression, or even unintentional harm, on other people.

No, quite Mark. Of course that would make sense. And for whatever reason, no God is doing it, so we do the limiting ourselves. It would help if everybody was reading from the same page on that one. This is the world we live in...better to make it work as we actually experience it whether we have faith, or not.
 
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Montalban

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No, quite Mark. Of course that would make sense. And for whatever reason, no God is doing it, so we do the limiting ourselves. It would help if everybody was reading from the same page on that one. This is the world we live in...better to make it work as we actually experience it whether we have faith, or not.

Do you think people should be able to take illegal drugs?
 
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Montalban

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Absolutely. Unclear only if you're living in a fantasy world bearing no resemblance to the one we actually inhabit.
The problem is people do wrong things all the time. I mean ALL THE TIME.

For instance I can have lewd thoughts, lie to my boss, etc. There's just so many bad things being done. I might lie to my boss so as to cover up something that would otherwise get me into trouble.

Now by Jane's logic, my boss didn't ask me to lie to him so I should be prevented by God from lying to him. BUT by telling him the truth I suffer and according to Jane God should prevent me from doing an act that harms myself.... and so on and so on - it's really just another way of covering the fact that some believe God should control most of our actions, therefore we become like puppets.

I don't ask to be robbed, for sure, but I don't support a system that allows people to use illegal drugs, and therefore in one sense I support a system that forces people to crime in order to buy their drugs.

Now I also support a system that punishes them for doing that bad thing as well. What they do has consequences but according to Jane's system does God prevent them stealing because they might be harmed from the consequences (like being arrested and sent to gaol) or does God prevent them from taking drugs (which might be harmful, but they might enjoy)?

The system we have has some people who are poor too. Does God give them a dole-cheque?
 
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benglobal

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Freedom of choice. Gift or curse

A myriad of thoughts swirl through my head
maybe this, maybe that, maybe I will, maybe I won’t.
what drives this maelstrom of quandary
what fires my ability to make the right choice.

Is my mind my mentor guiding me on to Nirvana
Is my ego my deceiving charlatan
luring me to wrong choice oblivion.

Surely my Neuro-sensory brain is the logical
unit for delivering the right choice.
But that brain carries the weight of my mind
and ego, driven by my body and senses
desire to endlessly consume.

Could I feel my way instead of think it?
Gut instinct and intuition spring to mind
but ever wary of the mockery that can
accompany those words when received by the narrow of mind.

I will not allow my feelings to be bullied by my thoughts.
I will stand defiant and guard those feelings
like a dozen sentry guards bristling at the ready to defend.

I sense that my feelings are my true friend
if only I had the courage to acknowledge them as such
to embrace them warmly and welcome them home.


With the above poem as an example, god does influence us, but not literally make us choose something else because this influence is very subtle. It’s voice (how we feel about something) can easily be drowned out by the ego driven mind or more importantly that feeling can be influenced more easily by the mind of another as that is the physical reality we understand as our truth. So we override how we feel and embrace what we think based on others influencing us and also us influencing us with set in stone thinking that quashes our internal feelings. Much in the way askthefamily was talking about the restrictions of the locality of birth and the social constructs that surround that and influence how we feel.
I moved away from Christianity because the social construct that I was born to limited my ability to feel who I was, although I couldn't verbalize that at 12, I could certainly feel it so I rebelled against all the thinking influences that challenged my feelings. At 42 I'm beginning to assess with greater clarity verbally, but still feel no great need to return to religion or the church but FEEL guided to a certain way to live that can be seen within all faiths.
Also based on my limited perspective I see no value in justifying any suffering, period, and if god knows the agenda with regard to why some suffer horribly and others not, he ain't letting me in on it. So the only goal I have is to let my feelings be the judge and to have a zero tolerance to any life form having to suffer and I challenge even the greatest minds that have lived because their thinking will not inhibit my feeling and make me choose a limited way. BTW my definition of god is 'positive influence beyond my physical form', just to clarify my use of the word god.

I appreciate the poetry may not be the best but I write for myself to better understand.

So as for God allowing suffering by my definition would be, does this positive influence beyond my physical form want others to suffer and allow evil ? Well no, as is evident by how I feel. How does he try to stop it? by helping to influence my choices (by how I feel) so that I can move in a certain direction but without taking away my free will, because I can choose differently. This is why we really can only change ourselves, lead by example and influence others in a positive fashion.
 
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hikersong

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Do you think people should be able to take illegal drugs?

There are drugs out there. Some of them are illegal. Some of them have other consequences. "People" should take those factors into account before deciding for themselves.

Not sure what your point was though.
 
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Eudaimonist

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The problem is people do wrong things all the time. I mean ALL THE TIME.

No, they don't. I could agree if you had said that they do wrong things some of the time.

For instance I can have lewd thoughts

Why would having lewd thoughts be wrong?

lie to my boss

Some lies are white lies. However, if you are lying to cheat your boss, e.g., if you are embezzling money from your boss, then cut it out! But not everyone does this.

If this is your standard for wrongdoing, I can understand why you would think that people do wrong "all of the time". But clearly, people do the right things a good deal of the time.

Now by Jane's logic, my boss didn't ask me to lie to him so I should be prevented by God from lying to him.

I don't recall Jane saying that all lies should be prevented. It seems that in Jane's view you should be prevented from robbing, raping, or murdering your boss. Would you agree to those restrictions? Do they make you a puppet?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Do you think people should be able to take illegal drugs?

No, I think that the war on drugs should be ended, drugs legalized, and people should be able to make their own choices regarding the now legal drugs they take and accept the consequences.

Also, I would not allow people to endanger the lives of others while driving under the influence of drugs.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Montalban

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There are drugs out there. Some of them are illegal. Some of them have other consequences. "People" should take those factors into account before deciding for themselves.

Not sure what your point was though.

Well according to Jane God should stop people acting if there's negative consequences
 
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Eudaimonist

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Well according to Jane God should stop people acting if there's negative consequences

I have reread Jane's past few posts. She doesn't say this. Can you quote her where she does?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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razeontherock

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Mark, she expresses the view that if G-d is who we say He is, He would have to intervene every time someone is about to commit some atrocious act. She has cited some truly horrendous things committed by individuals against individuals, so obviously she would draw the line well before a mass murder or even "just" a serial killer, but her view still has at least really obvious shortcomings:

1) Where do you draw the line? What does he have to prevent?

2) Why do we assume He dances at our pleasure? This rather misses the point of using the word "God."
 
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Montalban

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(Jane) expresses the view that if G-d is who we say He is, He would have to intervene every time someone is about to commit some atrocious act.

That's it! That's how I read what she says.

All it is is another (and convoluted) way of expressing that God should make us like automatons
 
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hikersong

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That's it! That's how I read what she says.

All it is is another (and convoluted) way of expressing that God should make us like automatons

She explains exactly why that isn't the case. But hey, why not ignore the other persons words if they get in the way of what you want them to be saying.
 
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Montalban

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She explains exactly why that isn't the case. But hey, why not ignore the other persons words if they get in the way of what you want them to be saying.
Not quite.

Whilst at once she says she's not saying that, she then gives examples of where she thinks God could limit man, which ends up being the SAME THING as I showed. That's what the past several pages have been about, including my question to you re: drugs.

But hey, why not ignore the other persons words if they get in the way of what you want them to be saying

You're welcome to discuss where you think her version of 'limited' interaction of God still gives us free will







I refer you to my post #72 above
 
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Eudaimonist

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Are people here incapable of understanding that preventing someone from taking action to harm others does not involve micromanaging their behavior and turning them into automatons? Aggressive acts against others amount to only a tiny range of personal choice. There is a great deal of personal freedom left over.

And why are people talking about preventing people from engaging in behavior potentially risky to themselves?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Mark, she expresses the view that if G-d is who we say He is, He would have to intervene every time someone is about to commit some atrocious act. She has cited some truly horrendous things committed by individuals against individuals, so obviously she would draw the line well before a mass murder or even "just" a serial killer, but her view still has at least really obvious shortcomings:

1) Where do you draw the line? What does he have to prevent?

Modern law has had little difficulty drawing lines. Why would this be difficult for God?

2) Why do we assume He dances at our pleasure? This rather misses the point of using the word "God."

You are right. He should put the entire human race into a concentration camp and torture us for eternity. Why should a good God do any differently? He is Cthulhu, right? Cthulhu doesn't care for any insignificant human good. We're just insects to him.

Or he can do what has been suggested -- act like a good God.

As Jane the Bane wrote:

With great power comes great responsibility.
With ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility.

Would a good God act irresponsibly? Or does his right to dance only at his pleasure give him an excuse?


eudaimonia,

mark
 
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hikersong

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Not quite.

Whilst at once she says she's not saying that, she then gives examples of where she thinks God could limit man, which ends up being the SAME THING as I showed.

Not at all.

I refer you to my post #72 above

I refer to you to Mark's post #73 above.
 
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