Theocracy

[Metal Minister]

I recently had a discussion with an atheist on another site, where his response was something to the effect of
"Christians just want to teach creationism to have a theocracy!"
After I got past the initial absurdity of the statement, it started me thinking. Why do non-theists (atheists, agnostics, pagans, humanists, etc) fear/hate the idea of a theocracy? Now before you answer, I need to specify the framework of the question. To start with there two parts.
1) In the human aspect of a theocracy (God has no direct involvement) state what do you hate/fear about it, and please expound on which denomination you feel would be the mostly likely to incite this response.
2) In the Divine aspect of a theocracy (God is directly involved) state what do you hate/fear about it, and expound on it.

To my Christian brothers and sisters, while I appreciate your input on responses perhaps from our non-theist friends, I would ask that you refrain from answering the op. This is not about denomination vs denomination, its about a deeper understanding of those who do not believe.

To my non-theist friends, please do not be surprised or offended if I ask questions. I may also challenge some responses if they are based in stereotypes or misinformation. I hope that through such discussions, a better respect, and a deeper understanding can be reached. I look forward to your responses!

 

[Ana the Ist]

I recently had a discussion with an atheist on another site, where his response was something to the effect of
"Christians just want to teach creationism to have a theocracy!"
After I got past the initial absurdity of the statement, it started me thinking. Why do non-theists (atheists, agnostics, pagans, humanists, etc) fear/hate the idea of a theocracy? Now before you answer, I need to specify the framework of the question. To start with there two parts.
1) In the human aspect of a theocracy (God has no direct involvement) state what do you hate/fear about it, and please expound on which denomination you feel would be the mostly likely to incite this response.
2) In the Divine aspect of a theocracy (God is directly involved) state what do you hate/fear about it, and expound on it.

To my Christian brothers and sisters, while I appreciate your input on responses perhaps from our non-theist friends, I would ask that you refrain from answering the op. This is not about denomination vs denomination, its about a deeper understanding of those who do not believe.

To my non-theist friends, please do not be surprised or offended if I ask questions. I may also challenge some responses if they are based in stereotypes or misinformation. I hope that through such discussions, a better respect, and a deeper understanding can be reached. I look forward to your responses!

This is easy! As an atheist, only the first part applies to my answer because obviously I don't believe there is any "divine" aspect of any theocracy. That said, the answer to the first part is truth. Fairly simple, right? I'll explain a bit, but I won't bother to go into every aspect since that would take forever.

There is reality, that which is real, that which is true. It's not the easiest thing to discern, or mankind would agree on a lot more than it disagrees on. Different people have different perceptions of reality. Some are closer to the truth than others. That perception (what they believe to be true) has a huge influence on the choices/decisions people make throughout their lives. Most people don't have to make decisions that affect the lives of many people other than themselves...some people do, but most people don't. This is where theocracy becomes a problem. Politicians make decisions that directly and indirectly affect the lives of many many people. Those decisions are based upon perception of reality (what they believe to be true). If their perception of reality is.....far from what actually is true....the consequences of their decisions could be disasterous. That's about as tactfully as I can explain it. People who believe that god sends tidal waves, kills homosexuals with disease, or placed them in power so they can kill all the communists...shouldn't be making decisions for a kindergarten class let alone a nation.

 

[Metal Minister]

This is easy! As an atheist, only the first part applies to my answer because obviously I don't believe there is any "divine" aspect of any theocracy. That said, the answer to the first part is truth. Fairly simple, right? I'll explain a bit, but I won't bother to go into every aspect since that would take forever.

There is reality, that which is real, that which is true. It's not the easiest thing to discern, or mankind would agree on a lot more than it disagrees on. Different people have different perceptions of reality. Some are closer to the truth than others. That perception (what they believe to be true) has a huge influence on the choices/decisions people make throughout their lives. Most people don't have to make decisions that affect the lives of many people other than themselves...some people do, but most people don't. This is where theocracy becomes a problem. Politicians make decisions that directly and indirectly affect the lives of many many people. Those decisions are based upon perception of reality (what they believe to be true). If their perception of reality is.....far from what actually is true....the consequences of their decisions could be disasterous. That's about as tactfully as I can explain it. People who believe that god sends tidal waves, kills homosexuals with disease, or placed them in power so they can kill all the communists...shouldn't be making decisions for a kindergarten class let alone a nation.

Ok, first thank you for the response. Unfortunately its only about 1/4 of the question. You see, I was looking for a bit more in the way of specifics, and its my fault for not being clear. I understand your idea on the not wanting humans who hold those beliefs in power, the problem is they are today. My question was based more on specifics of the theocratic systems. Also, in part two, I should've explained that in that scenario, it is known that God is, in fact, directly involved. Not based on whether you personally believe now or not. So instead from the standpoint placing yourself in the position of God being directly involved. Hope this clarifies it a bit.

 

[Metal Minister]

Also, I forgot to mention, due to some health and personal problems, I may not be able to respond right away, or even within a couple of days. Don't give up on me! I'll get to responses as quickly as I am able! Thanks ahead of time for your patience!

 

[Mystman]

If God was real, and depending on the type of God, a theocracy would seem pretty sensible.

Our view of right and wrong form the laws, but the laws also form our view of right and wrong to some extent. If a government allows or even encourages a type of behavior (say.. the type of greed crucial to the capitalistic system) more people will see it as "normal" and engage in it. It's hardly ideal if God then sends people to hell for behavior that the government encourages. So in general, God's laws corresponding to man's laws should be the best way of keeping most people out of hell.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok, first thank you for the response. Unfortunately its only about 1/4 of the question. You see, I was looking for a bit more in the way of specifics, and its my fault for not being clear. I understand your idea on the not wanting humans who hold those beliefs in power, the problem is they are today. My question was based more on specifics of the theocratic systems. Also, in part two, I should've explained that in that scenario, it is known that God is, in fact, directly involved. Not based on whether you personally believe now or not. So instead from the standpoint placing yourself in the position of God being directly involved. Hope this clarifies it a bit.

They are in power today! Thankfully though, we live in a secular system that stops them from creating laws based upon those beliefs. If you want to apply my answer to the entire theocratic system you can...it doesn't change the answer. As for the last part, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want me to pretend there's a god and then speculate on how that would affect a theocratic government?

 

[Metal Minister]

They are in power today! Thankfully though, we live in a secular system that stops them from creating laws based upon those beliefs. If you want to apply my answer to the entire theocratic system you can...it doesn't change the answer. As for the last part, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want me to pretend there's a god and then speculate on how that would affect a theocratic government?

In a way, yes, but I think what's been missed is that I'm looking for specifics of what is hated/feared by non-theists, of a theocratic system. Part one, what specifically in the context of a man made theocracy, and part two what specifically in the context of God's making of the system. I apologize, but I mist sign off for the night. I'll return when I can!

 

[Ana the Ist]

In a way, yes, but I think what's been missed is that I'm looking for specifics of what is hated/feared by non-theists, of a theocratic system. Part one, what specifically in the context of a man made theocracy, and part two what specifically in the context of God's making of the system. I apologize, but I mist sign off for the night. I'll return when I can!

I thought my answer was scary enough. Ok, how about a non-theocratic example as an analogy? Ever hear of the housing bubble? It was a result of an incorrect perception of reality. People in charge of housing loans thought a particular system was sustainable, it wasn't. The result was a rather damaging economic recession. That happened over mistakes concerning just one aspect of the economy...now imagine those mistakes being made about everything that the religion the theocracy concerns itself with. Examples, the role of women, equal rights, administration of law, dealing out justice, slavery, economics, etc. and so on....it would be nightmarish.

How would god play into a theocracy? I imagine that after decades upon decades of misinterpretation, misunderstanding, and misuse...god would look upon the nation that claims to be living according to his word and be utterly disgusted/angry/vengeful. He would then send a meteor/flood/plague/kill every firstborn son and thereby destroy that nation. Was that what you were looking for?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why do non-theists (atheists, agnostics, pagans, humanists, etc) fear/hate the idea of a theocracy?

I see theocracy as a threat to the rational life and self-determination of the individual as protected (somewhat imperfectly) in modern liberal democracies by individual rights. Theocracies are about using the force of government to get people to conform to religious moralities, and are a threat to the good life. Theocracies may also involve an elitist element, where for example only people belonging to a certain religion are entitled to certain rights or privileges. I'm against theocracy for similar reasons to why I oppose totalitarianism in general.

I'm an atheist, so the only form of theocracy that I believe could exist is the "human aspect". There's no such thing as the "divine aspect", though presumably if that did exist it would suffer from the same problems.

BTW, I don't believe that all Christians are closet theocrats. However, I do believe that some religious conservatives blur the lines between their religious morality and politics so much that they are de facto theocrats.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JGG]

Also, in part two, I should've explained that in that scenario, it is known that God is, in fact, directly involved. Not based on whether you personally believe now or not.

Okay, but you understand that it is presently not known that God is involved. This is scenario pretty far removed from reality, and somewhat negates the question you are asking "why do I fear a theocracy?"

In your scenario: How do we all know that God is involved? What kind of God is this? Do we all agree on what God it is? In what way is God involved? Is it a corrupt God sitting on a throne demanding macaroni pictures from starving children, is it a just God who is present and just knows what is best for everyone, or is it Dave who claims to tell us what God wants?

 

[Paradoxum]

1) I would hate and fear theocracy no matter which denomination it was. Even if it was a 'liberal' denomination, it's still totally unjust to force your worldview on others. eg: It would still be totally wrong to ban Islam, even if I agree that Islam is false.

I would primarily fear and hate conservative theocracy, because it would put people in chains, striping them of their liberty. It would cause suffering, make people's lives worse, and slow scientific advances. There is no difference between theocracy and tyranny. It would make us slaves to the opinion of a few.

2) If there was a God, I don't know if it makes sense for him to endorse a theocracy. When I was a Christian, I didn't believe God was a tyrant. Assuming my non-authoritarian loving God was real, then it might make sense for God to make the rules. He would also know the wisest balance between liberty and harm, and when to ban/ restrict actions. eg: Make abortion laws less restrictive, because human innate specialness is a fiction.

In the real world this is impossible though. God has never made his thoughts so well known that we can all agree that God is definitely speaking to us. God would have to be personally and obviously experienced by all in society for such a system to be justified. We know God doesn't do this.

 

[essentialsaltes]

1) In the human aspect of a theocracy (God has no direct involvement) state what do you hate/fear about it

Regardless of denomination, it is antithetical to the ideals expressed in the Constitution.

 

[Freodin]

A (human) theocracy would by necessity be a dictatorship. There could be no debate, no compromise. Opposition would not be only disagreement, but a sign of evil. Without a means of finding consensus, a theocracy would have to depend on violence and oppression to enforce its rule.
The inability of a human lead theocracy to make up and agree on a all-compassing, absolute system of laws and morality would mean that even the supporters of such a system would live in constant peril of running afoul of the authorities.

Like every absolutist system, it would not be a nice place to live in.


As for a (divine) theocracy... well, that would depend on the deity. Sadly there has never been an example of such a system to analyze. (I wonder why )

 

[Gadarene]

I would also say that there is no reason to think there is a divine aspect of a theocracy as there is no reason to there is anything divine. If it turned out your god actually did exist, he is not someone to be running things as he is scarcely just going by how many Christians describe him.

As for the human aspect - those Christians that typically think they should be running the show are usually the last people you want running the show. And I've held to this stance for a long time - I was a secularist while I was still a Christian.

 

[yasic]

To understand my dislike of a theocracy, imagine living in a government centered around the belief in the tooth fairy. The government runs itself not too different from others, food is produced, taxes collected, but there are certain perks to this government.

For instance, dentistry is outlawed because it could prevent us from giving the tooth fairy her share of teeth. Medical schools and biology classes would be required to teach that teeth are made out of magical substances and it would be illegal to claim they are made of bone. And all public meetings will begin with a pledge to grow strong so we may provide our teeth to the fairy.

Worst of all, the country will have a lot of its decisions made by the order of the fairy, essentially men who dedicated their lives to studying the ways of the tooth fairy and will tell politicians how to change society to best confirm to her ways.

Would you like to live in such a society? Can you explain why you would or would not be ok with it by the two aspects: The human aspect and the fae aspect?

 

[Paulos23]

I think this Frank Herbert quote states my fears:

“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way.”


And this one as well:

“When politics and religion are intermingled, a people is suffused with a sense of invulnerability, and gathering speed in their forward charge, they fail to see the cliff ahead of them”

 

[keith99]

A (human) theocracy would by necessity be a dictatorship. There could be no debate, no compromise. Opposition would not be only disagreement, but a sign of evil. Without a means of finding consensus, a theocracy would have to depend on violence and oppression to enforce its rule.
The inability of a human lead theocracy to make up and agree on a all-compassing, absolute system of laws and morality would mean that even the supporters of such a system would live in constant peril of running afoul of the authorities.

Like every absolutist system, it would not be a nice place to live in.


As for a (divine) theocracy... well, that would depend on the deity. Sadly there has never been an example of such a system to analyze. (I wonder why )

I disagree. A Theocracy need not be a dictatorship. There is no reason a college of cardinals or the like could not be the supreme body and that compromise is not only possible but typical.

The problem is more subtle and dangerous. A theocracy is by definition doing God's will, or at least is claiming to do God's will. This is prone to result in no limits to the persecution of unbelievers or for that matter any believers who stray from the path.

 

[Gadarene]

I think this Frank Herbert quote states my fears:

“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way.”


And this one as well:

“When politics and religion are intermingled, a people is suffused with a sense of invulnerability, and gathering speed in their forward charge, they fail to see the cliff ahead of them”

Well, not necessarily - they'll charge right off the cliff intentionally if they think it's prophecy or destiny.

 

[selfinflikted]

The problem is more subtle and dangerous. A theocracy is by definition doing God's will, or at least is claiming to do God's will. This is prone to result in no limits to the persecution of unbelievers or for that matter any believers who stray from the path.

This. I couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Freodin]

I disagree. A Theocracy need not be a dictatorship. There is no reason a college of cardinals or the like could not be the supreme body and that compromise is not only possible but typical.

The problem is more subtle and dangerous. A theocracy is by definition doing God's will, or at least is claiming to do God's will. This is prone to result in no limits to the persecution of unbelievers or for that matter any believers who stray from the path.

A dictatorship does not have to mean a single person ruling. An oligarchy can be just as dictatorical.

The only way to circumvent that would be to have the people vote on what really is God's will and hold that open to correction as well. Which would not be a theocracy at all.