...then why do we have freewill?

[Chicken Little]

"Because you just told me that God wants us to have a free choice."

He wants us to have free choice so that we can chose
faith and faithfullness which is sacrifice in this greedy world of takers . and ask most of us when we excepted the Lord it wasn't because there might be a hell!

We excepted him because his Love and sacrifice is the only thing close to any kind of meaning even remotely close to any concept related to LOVE or unconditional Love on this whole planet!
so if some one was incapable of a selfless marriage and in it and through it don't think they learned or know what unconditional love is , doesn't mean He is incapable of selfless love and that He doesn't know what it is .

Just because you don't seem to know what his demand for faith and faithfulness is. why he he has a demand in order to have a relationship with him and what it means to a relationship . that doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is and that he isn't capable of it and it certainly does mean that he doesn't have a right to demand it and reward those willingly invest/ sacrifice in order to maintain that "love" relationship. .

I think that is called projecting and thus assume on God what you don't know .
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean God doesn't understand it and have good reason for it.
and the rest are just trying to understand him in his definitions of it .
Ps you aren't a god and not like one either.
that is the lie associated to that tree in the garden , is that you can have knowledge without him.
what ever knowledge you need to know you have that he doesn't , is only of stuff he would never do to anyone.
you really need to stop projecting .

 

[Chicken Little]

PSS the rich guy down the block isn't going to give me a fur coat for me being faithful to my husband.
my husband will ( if he could afford it ) or he will sacrifice to get me something I want for being his Love and a faithful wife( thus time served) .. . and the rich guy is going to Give his wife a fur coat for being the love of his life and faithfully putting up with HIM ..
It seems lefties / socialist keep thinking everyone deserves a fur coat even when they were not faithful to anyone.

or most likely they decided to make marriage and fur coats a "sin" because they would never be given one or would they want to make that sacrifice for anyone else.

 

[Troy Rambo]

Henry McLeod asked this question:

If sin comes from freewill...Then we either don't have free will in heaven, or there is sin in heaven.

(In this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/if-all-sin-comes-from-free-will.7903842/)

Several people answered that we lose or give up our freewill in heaven. Others say we are changed, transformed or cleansed.

I feel Henry is not asking the obvious follow up questions:

Why then, did God give us freewill? I've always been told that "God doesn't want robots, or puppets" but if we're going to be robots without freewill in heaven, why not just make us that way to begin with? If we're going to be changed, transformed, or cleansed, why not just make us in the final form to begin with? Why create this existence at all if God can create us in His preferred, final, perfect, heavenly form?

My apologies for asking questions.

This is a very interesting question as I have the same idea. But ultimately I dont have the answer, only an opinion.

But first, I think one of the reasons God created us with free will is so that when we do choose to love and obey him it makes Him happier than if we were just robots. Now I think all animals besides us are His robots. So He already has robots he controls without free will and He may not love them as much as us because of this.

The reason I think that the animals are His robots is because of the story of Noah's Ark. It would have been impossible for Noah to gather and force all those animals onto the ark. It must have been God who controlled the animals to voluntarily come to the ark. This idea is reinforced by the movie "Noah." I mean, those animals lined up in single file to board the ark!

Now how we can we be without sin in heaven is certainly a mystery to me as well. One idea is that the spirit world is so perfect that there is no option to sin? I dont know. But I cant wait to find out one day!

 

[tucker58]

Henry McLeod asked this question:

If sin comes from freewill...Then we either don't have free will in heaven, or there is sin in heaven.

(In this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/if-all-sin-comes-from-free-will.7903842/)

Several people answered that we lose or give up our freewill in heaven. Others say we are changed, transformed or cleansed.

I feel Henry is not asking the obvious follow up questions:

Why then, did God give us freewill? I've always been told that "God doesn't want robots, or puppets" but if we're going to be robots without freewill in heaven, why not just make us that way to begin with? If we're going to be changed, transformed, or cleansed, why not just make us in the final form to begin with? Why create this existence at all if God can create us in His preferred, final, perfect, heavenly form?

My apologies for asking questions.

Ok, what if we go back to the beginning and the choice that created the origional sin? Originally God did create Adam and Eve in His preferred, final, perfect, immortal earthly form. And all was well. Apparently God created a garden and then He created Adam, a man, to live in this garden and then from Adam God created a woman to be Adam's helper (Genesis 2:7-25). Now in the middle of this garden was planted a tree who's fruit contained the "Knowledge" of good and evil and Adam and his Eve were told to not eat the fruit from this tree (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:2-3). From this we could conclude that Adam and Eve were sin free because they didn't have any "knowledge" of good and evil.

"Sin comes from free will." And this free will allows us to choose between "good and evil". But the only reason that this free will choice, that leads to sin, is being made, is because we are still eating from the fruit of the tree of the "knowlege" of good and evil. Now, through Jesus our Christ and our beloved Lord and Savior we can quit eating from the tree of the "knowledge" of good and evil and go back to eating from the Tree of Life. The problem with not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that we know no other way. But through Jesus our Christ and Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit we can learn another way. And that way will lead us away from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and back to eating from the Tree of Life.

Our "free will" choices are based on the ignorance that is the result of generations and generations of humankind eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. "The sins of the parents are visited on the children." We are trapped and the only way out of that trap is through Jesus our Christ and beloved Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit ("and the Holy Spirit will teach you."). The robot part is making the same mistake over and over again because we know nothing else. Jesus our Christ and Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit are God the Father's gift to us to free us from being robots. In my opinion .

 

[JGG]

Ok, what if we go back to the beginning and the choice that created the origional sin? Originally God did create Adam and Eve in His preferred, final, perfect, immortal earthly form. And all was well. Apparently God created a garden and then He created Adam, a man, to live in this garden and then from Adam God created a woman to be Adam's helper (Genesis 2:7-25). Now in the middle of this garden was planted a tree who's fruit contained the "Knowledge" of good and evil and Adam and his Eve were told to not eat the fruit from this tree (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:2-3). From this we could conclude that Adam and Eve were sin free because they didn't have any "knowledge" of good and evil.

"Sin comes from free will." And this free will allows us to choose between "good and evil". But the only reason that this free will choice, that leads to sin, is being made, is because we are still eating from the fruit of the tree of the "knowlege" of good and evil. Now, through Jesus our Christ and our beloved Lord and Savior we can quit eating from the tree of the "knowledge" of good and evil and go back to eating from the Tree of Life. The problem with not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that we know no other way. But through Jesus our Christ and Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit we can learn another way. And that way will lead us away from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and back to eating from the Tree of Life.

Our "free will" choices are based on the ignorance that is the result of generations and generations of humankind eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. "The sins of the parents are visited on the children." We are trapped and the only way out of that trap is through Jesus our Christ and beloved Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit ("and the Holy Spirit will teach you."). The robot part is making the same mistake over and over again because we know nothing else. Jesus our Christ and Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit are God the Father's gift to us to free us from being robots. In my opinion .

I'm sorry. I feel there must be an analogy in here that I'm just not getting.

 

[tucker58]

I'm sorry. I feel there must be an analogy in here that I'm just not getting.

If there is a problem JGG, then it is my fault not yours . I have spent most of my life in meditative prayer and a lot of that time contemplating the concept of sin. Ultimately it all ended up back to the original sin and where things went from there. So how would humankind think if Adam and Eve had never eaten the fruit of the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil"? It seems to me that we would all make decisions that are based on reasons that have nothing to do with "good and evil". And freewill would be used to choose the paths and actions that work the best, with the understanding that paths and actions that bring one closer to God always work the best. One moves toward God because it is a "no brainer", not because it is evil to not move toward God. And eating the fruit from the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil" also caused Adam and Eve for the first time to "fear" God. If they had not done this then they would have never feared God and we as their offspring also would never fear God. So all freewill choices would be based on what works the best, what brings us closer to God, and the total lack of a fear of God. And thus, freewill would not lead to sin.

Yes because we are all under the spell/influence of the fruit of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" freewill leads to sin because we all sit in judgment of and are passing judgement on what is good and what is evil. Which also includes our judging of God and the question, "Is He good or evil?" All of this because we are under the spell/influence of the fruit of the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil". And the only reason that Satan has power over us is because we are under the spell/influence of the fruit of the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil". He says, "You have the freewill to judge the good and evil of it all!" Originally God saw everything as "good". And we, because we are all under the spell/influence of the fruit of the tree of the "knowledge of good and evil" because of Satan's lie to Adam and Eve, see and judge everything as good or evil. "Is the fault freewill?" Yes, but only because we are under the spell/influence of the fruit of the tree of the "Knowledge of good and evil". If we were not under that spell/influence, then freewill is a great idea.