Theists and Atheists working together?

[ebia]

This thread has become an off-topic debate.

 

[Key]

This thread has become an off-topic debate.

I would hope not, as we are still discussing the foundation of Atheist and Theist working together, as such, I do not see an "off topic debate" arising.. at least on my part...

Please forgive my late response... there is much to be said.. and I have little time at the moment.. forgive me if my post is limited.

How fair is this? The fact that I'm moral is due all to christianity's influence on me? But if I were evil, it would be because of the devil or because I don't accept god?

Please do not place words in my mouth, it makes for such a negative discussion, and it makes it so hard to maintain a civil level of mutual respect.

First off, I never said that, nor did I imply that, I said, you were a product of your culture, and our culture here in America is built off the Moral Codes of the Scriptures as taught by Jesus.

Your decision to either be moral or immoral by your cultural standards is your choice, and your choice alone.

That's pretty cheap of christianity to take credit for all that is good and pawn off all that's bad on everything else.

Again, I really wish you would not put words in my mouth, it truly makes this a hard discussion to have with you.

However, the Influence of Sin in our culture is a product of both Humans fall from grace, and the Devil working his ways. Our decision to be engulfed by, or embrace this type of life style, or let it corrupt us, is our choice, and ours alone.

How we abide by what we believe or more to the point what we have been influenced to believe is moral or immoral, is our own decisions.

You are atheist to all other gods as well, so I don't know why it's so hard for you all to grasp that atheism is simply a lack of belief in the concept of god....that's it. You can't tell anything else about us. We don't share any other creeds, ideals, or anything else. Got it?

Oh this is priceless, ok.. Umm.. Atheism...

Tell you what, before we carry on.. why don't we start with where you stand.. on which type or brand of Atheism you fall into.

As for the idea that I am Atheist, I can not be.. as I am a Theist..

The fact that I refuse to accept that anyone else's God is the one true God, does not in any form make me an Atheist to their religion, it makes me a Pagan, or even a Heretic. Lovingly referred to by the Muslims as a Infidel.

Now, Yes, Atheism, if you read the Link, depending on the "Type" you are, does have Creeds and Dogmas, and even a foundation, and social cultural meetings, places like Internet Infidels, and things like that, do provide a cultural basis for those that have come into the Atheist "Fold" and subscribe to their "Belief" as such, it is a belief, even if in your case, it is only a personal one. You have your own personal creeds.. for example "I can be good and moral with out a god or gods" this is a creed.. albeit, it may be a personal one.. but it is still such..

Another Dogma of yours.. might be, that Life can just "become" with out the need of a divine entity..

A Model or even a personal ideal might be that Evolution must be true, which would be a ideal of faith, that this is a fact or a Truth of your belief.. (not true for all)..

That matter can just become with out the need for a divine creator.. there are many things that enter the picture, if one it to accept Atheism, they need to accept other things, some times they might not care, or might not give it consideration, which very well might be a truth to them.. but they need to some how, accept these things, for them to accept the ideal of Atheism.

Now, I will give you, it is not as vast and involved as say.... becoming a Christian.. but there are things you would need to accept that would be a constant among all Atheist, for you to maintain the premise of your belief that there is no god or gods.

Now, in the end, even if you have not given consideration to other points of interest, you still only Believe that there are no Divine entities, this, even if that is all you had, is still nothing but a matter of personal belief and faith on your part that indeed that no god or gods exist.

Just as with the unicorns.. we would have to take on faith, that they did not exist, which, even if that was all we had in common, that would still make it a belief.

Just I believe that Chocolate is just "another candy" wheres other people believe that Chocolate is the only true candy. In this front, it is simply a matter of personal belief, but that is all it really is.. a belief.

I think what I consider moral is to do what's best for humanity.

ok.. I'll just go with this...

Theists' morals (I believe) lead you to do what's best for your god.

Not gonna get into this either.. so lets go with this as well..

I see a problem with these morals because anyone with a particular god can justify the murder of innocent babies if it's in the name of a god.

Then it would be the individual that has the issues, not the "God" or "Gods" in this case.. but again I'll just go with this..

I cannot ever justify the murder of innocent babies since that would be counter-productive to maintaining humanity.

Well, you use the word Humanity.. I believe very vaguely.

You need to grasp, that in the end of things, you, nor I, know what it really "best" for Humanity...

This seems to be a bit of a contradiction, you say, you can not justify the murder of innocent babies, but then you say you are for abortion, which is really nothing more the killing an innocent baby while it is still in the womb, because these "innocent" babies, will grow up to be criminals. So... if I have this right.. if the child is born, it some how becomes innocent.. and if you kill it before it is born, it is done to prevent a criminal from being.. why not also kill them after they are born.. just in the chance you did not get them in time while they were still in the womb. The end result will not change.. and you have to agree killing them.. even after birth.. is still a positive thing for "Humanity" as a whole.

Now at this point, I would ask, where you have gotten this moral stand point, but I know where you have gotten it, it is a product of your culture and how you have been influenced by your surroundings, where you have been influenced that this is a morally good thing to do to kill them before they are born, but that something magical happens to them the second they come out of the womb. But we both know that this is not the case.. after all.. all those un-aborted fetuses, were the ones that grew up to be criminals, hence why we know they grew up to be criminals, so at what point, did they become "innocent" if before they were born, they should be killed?

Do I hold this against you.. No.. You are a product of your culture, and you will hold your stand, as you have been influenced to hold your stand, and believe as you have been influenced to believe.

Such is the way of things. You are not corrupt, you have been corrupted.. there is a difference. I hope you can appreciate that.

The only other thing I can really respond to is your post about sin. I challenge you to show me that the way I live my life is somehow more moral than the way you live yours.

Umm.. let me see if I have this right.. you want me to prove to you, that the way you live your life... is more moral then the way I live mine..?

First off, I don't know you well enough, secondly, we are both humans, none of us has the right to make this claim that they are "So moral and holy" anyone that does.. well they are full of it... we are all sinners.. and we all fall short..

It's amazing that you, not knowing anything about me, can say that I am an immoral person just because I do not believe in your god.

Again, I have not said that, and again, I would ask that you do not put words into my mouth.

I said you have corrupted by your culture and environment, I am sure you try to live a decent life by what your current culture has established to be a "decent" life.. you will forgive me.. if by what my Religion teaches, that what the current culture passes off as a Decent life.. is not decent.

That's a womderful way to look at the world and other human beings that automatically just because they don't think like you, they are automatically immoral and sinful.

Even if you did think like me.. heck, even if you lived your life by Gods moral standards from this day forward, your still a sinner, that will never change.

Everyone is a sinner. We have all sinned, I would say the only difference between you and I, are what we define as what is truly Moral, and Immoral.

In your case, it is your culture, in mine, it is a "holy scripture". They disagree. So what.. why should you get all twisted up about it.

Maybe the problem here, is lack of communication, maybe that is why there are issues, and problems and these misconceptions that exist, and I would say, as long as there will be this barrier of limited grasp of the other, then forever will there be a wall.

Your bible may say that I am a sinful person, but I rest easy every night knowing that the world is a better place because I exist.

The bible says I am a sinful person too.. I sleep like a baby.. Until the bills come in.. then.. bah that's all personal junk.

However, how do you know that the world is a better place because of you?

See, I don't think the "Wold" is a better place because me... I know I do a lot for my friends, my family, I help strangers, and stuff like that, but, I know my impact is local, it's limited, just as I am limited. I have not done something so grand as to affect the "World"

Now, if you have, then I am truly impressed, would you care to share it with us?

I do any number of things each day to make others' lives easy. I generally care about other human beings and show this everyday.

Ok, so it seems you have a local impact, the "world" as a whole, is oblivious to your existence.

You're almost creating problems where there are none to begin with by saying that someone is sinful for not believing in your creed. How does that add up to creating a better world for everyone?

Everyone is sinful, believe my creed or not, I am sinful, so is everyone on this form, and they will all admit it. Yes.. I am a sinner.

But, unless I know what I should do, to overcome what I am doing wrong, then I will continue to do it. The Bible gives me a path to follow that will do two things...

The First, it will make me a better person, to myself.

The Second is,it will make me a better person to those around me.

And it will do it, by providing me a means and a method to how to act properly and civil, and how to overcome my own weakness, that will not change, that in 20 years will have to get revamped, in 50 years, has to change again, and then, every generation something else needs to be added.

This "Moral Code" has stood for 2000 years, and has shown no signs of needing any form of overhaul or reform. That allows me to build the foundation of my life, on something solid, something, enduring, something I can trust and depend on, to be there, to guide me, for the rest of my life, and I can always know that it will remain a constant in my life.

I just can't do that with cultural morals, I just can't see that happen with out the Teachings of Christ.

Now to answer some of your other questions, really quick and fast.

What exactly is a human being?

A Human is a carbon based cellular life form which is composed of Chemical Reactions and Electrical Impulses.

A fetus needs certain things in order to become a human being (which it is not yet) the same way a sperm needs an egg (among other things) to become human.

all it needs is Nutrients, but then again, an Adult Human needs nutrients to survive as well. In that front, an adult human and a fetus need the identical same things for survival.

Hope I have provided you some answers, maybe we might have some time to sit down and discuss each side of the fence one day, and maybe you might learn my side in a light that you may or may not have known existed.

God Bless

Key

 

[Key]

I have given this topic some thought, now, and have had a chance to see how it has twisted in some manners.

Now, your proposition, is an odd one, to tell the truth.

You see, lets use abortion for the first example.

You find that it is morally acceptable for abortion to happen, and for woman to have abortions, and say.. I do not..

Now if I express that, and see to stop what I find to be an immoral act from becoming a part of our culture and everyday life.. I am imposing my religion on you.. and that is wrong, by your standards.

Now.. for the second example:

As a "religion X" I believe that the life of a Child rests in the hands of the parent, as such, the parent has the full right and authority to kill their child for any level of disobedience, regardless of how old our young the child might be.

Now you might disagree with that, as you said.. in your own words "Killing innocent babies is wrong" and you might wish to put a stop to the fact that these people who follow "religion X" are doing..

But that would make you on the same level of scum as me, and doing exactly what you condemn me for doing.. that is.. imposing my morals on someone that I feel what they are doing is wrong.

And that might be the biggest issue with why there seems to be tension, you feel, what you believe is morally just and right, (same as I do), we disagree with each others "morals" as such, we will try to impose our morals on each other, it is our nature... when we feel we are right..

Now, I would say, the day you can step down, and realize that your "morals" are no better then mine, or anyone else, regardless of how horrible what they are doing may seem.. you will realize why.. things are as they are... and why they will continue on that path for all of humanity existence.

When you can step aside and let someone commit abominations abd immoral acts as you have set forth, maybe kill a baby or child, even an adult, allow rape, and stealing all in the name of "Acceptance" because their religion "Lets them do it" then... you can come to me.. and ask why I am not doing the same...

Till that day.. Look in the Mirror.. I am the same as you.. and I will do as you do.. maybe that is why we can not get along...

God Bless

Key.

 

[MethodMan]

Closed for review

 

[Nienor]

Thread is being reopened, but please be very careful about staying on-topic and refraining from debate.