Theists and Atheists working together?

[Zocrates]

I think I've come to a realization of sorts; that religion really can help people better themselves to live healthy lives. I don't doubt that.

But...

I think the only real problem atheists have with religious people is that your beliefs impact everyone's lives. I wouldn't care one iota what you believe in your head as long as you don't prevent a woman from having an abortion because of your beliefs or that people don't drive planes into buildings because of them.

That's where the line has to be drawn. The religious are focused on the afterlife, while a lot of atheists are more concerned about making life better here in this world, and the two often conflict.

Let's take abortion for example. Christians are against abortion for religious reasons, but it makes sense that if a woman is raped, that she be able to abort the fetus. Basically if a woman wants an abortion, that means they don't want to have the child. whether its through rape or irrespinsibility, unwanted children are going to happen in this world no matter if you're religious or not. And unwanted children turn into criminals more often than not. So, I would much rather allow women to have abortions, if necessary, than have another potential criminal on our hands.

As long as religion doesn't impact other people's lives, I'm willing to make a truce and realize that religion serves its purpose just as atheism does. But since not everyone believes in the afterlife, we all have to adjust and make sure we can live together and not impact each other's lives with our beliefs.

What does this mean? This means no legislation inspired by the bible, koran, torah, whatever. The reason for this is that often times what's best for human beings, as I've stated above, conflicts with people's beliefs. If you choose not to have an abortion, that's one thing. But if it doesn't harm you, legislation should not be passed making abortion or gay marriage illegal.

Basically if religion were a truly personal way of bettering yourself, I would have no problem with it. My best friend is a devout christian and his father, who i consider a friend as well, is a pastor. I think the reason we get along so great is that he keeps his religion private.

Does this sound like something we could work towards?

 

[HypnoToad]

No, this is not something Christians can "work towards".

Christianity is not to be kept to ourselves. Christ told us to spread the Gospel, not "keep it private".

 

[kulenok]

Sadly, Christians are not always, and not even close to always, the ones pushing their beliefs on others. Atheism and evolution are taught in all public schools around America, and yet it is US who are affecting other's lives with our religion. Christians are not allowed to discuss religion in public places, even if they are ONLY speaking with their Christian friends or anyone willing to listen. Evolution is almost always regarded as "truth" and yet it is a THEORY. So, I suppose Christians are the only ones affecting others with their religion...Oh wait...no we are not. But we get the privillage to listen to everyone complaining about it.

 

[Zocrates]

Here's the way I see it, maybe I'm wrong here and there are more options, but I only see 3 outcomes here given all of our different religious beliefs.

1. We live together and figure out what's best for us as human beings while allowing anyone to worship as they see fit, as long as it doesn't effect others. This is not to say you have to shut up about religion in public or anything like that, but public laws and customs cannot be religion-specific.

2. Religion is banned alltogether, with the focus being shifted to what's best for individual human beings and man kind as a whole at all times.

3. Religion continues as is. Basically, a fight between the religions and whoever survives the fighting will win. Meanwhile, lives are lost everyday as a result of this senseless fighting.

There is no other way a muslim and a christian can coexist when one despizes the other for their beliefs and both will try to impose each other's will on the other until one side is defeated. So basically, we're talking about option 3 as war.

If you have any other ways of avoiding conflict, please let me know.

 

[HypnoToad]

wha...? How do you feel about Radical Islamist doing the same thing? Why would it be different?

What other people do has no bearing on what Christ commanded us to do.

 

[Zocrates]

What other people do has no bearing on what Christ commanded us to do.

Actually, it does have a bearing on what you do if they kill you or your family. Don't you think you should concern yourself with trying to prevent that?

 

[Key]

Atheism does not equal Evolution.

Atheism is the belief that there is no god.

Evolution is a scientific theory about the origins of life.

Carefull with the word "theory" above as it is used in the scientific sence of established fact not in the everyday sence of best guess.

No, a Theory is supposed to be a Supported Hypothesis, which under the correct conditions can either be supported further or disproved. In no case is a Theory a fact. This is a logical fault that many people who strive to support Evolution miss, if it was a fact, then it would be a fact, and not a Theory.

IE: The Fact that Adaptation happens, and we have witnessed it, and even used it in many medical applications, Adaptation is a Fact is not a Theory.

The concept that all life adapts, is a Theory, as we do not know for sure if all life does indeed adapt or change, we can only make a Hypothesis that all life can adapt, and test that, with different life forms, which support the Theory that all life adapts as far as we know, but this does not make the Theory that all life adapts true, or a fact.

Evolution is broken down into several Theories, and it is one of the few (The only one I know of) that uses itself as support for itself, IE: The Theory of Evolution supports the Theory of Evolution. As silly as that sounds, that is the way it works.

But Evolution in the Macro sense, is little more then a story, not even truly a Theory as it can not be tested, and the tests that have been done (fruit flies) have proven it false anyway, so, we it is still in the Theory stage.

Hope this Helps you.

God Bless

Key

 

[Zocrates]

Evolution is broken down into several Theories, and it is one of the few (The only one I know of) that uses itself as support for itself, IE: The Theory of Evolution supports the Theory of Evolution. As silly as that sounds, that is the way it works.

Hey there Key!

Doesn't the bible do the same for itself? Doesn't the only evidence that supports the bible....come from the bible?

I would like to get your opinion on my post as well if you get a second.

Thanks

 

[ebia]

I think I've come to a realization of sorts; that religion really can help people better themselves to live healthy lives. I don't doubt that.

But...

I think the only real problem atheists have with religious people is that your beliefs impact everyone's lives.

Of course people's beliefs impact other people. Everybody's do.

I wouldn't care one iota what you believe in your head as long as you don't prevent a woman from having an abortion because of your beliefs or that people don't drive planes into buildings because of them.

That's where the line has to be drawn. The religious are focused on the afterlife, while a lot of atheists are more concerned about making life better here in this world, and the two often conflict.

Properly understood, most of the world's religions aren't focused on the "afterlife". Christainity certainly isn't meant to be. It's supposed to be focused on the Kingdom of God - a Kingdom that isn't fully implemented yet, but which we are supposed to be anticipating in practical ways by bring justice, mercy, etc into the world.

Let's take abortion for example. Christians are against abortion for religious reasons, but it makes sense that if a woman is raped, that she be able to abort the fetus. Basically if a woman wants an abortion, that means they don't want to have the child. whether its through rape or irrespinsibility, unwanted children are going to happen in this world no matter if you're religious or not. And unwanted children turn into criminals more often than not. So, I would much rather allow women to have abortions, if necessary, than have another potential criminal on our hands.

As long as religion doesn't impact other people's lives, I'm willing to make a truce and realize that religion serves its purpose just as atheism does. But since not everyone believes in the afterlife, we all have to adjust and make sure we can live together and not impact each other's lives with our beliefs.

That's a truce that the world has been pushing since the enlightement, and one that Christianity has to a degree (wrongly) accepted, but one that is not compatible with historic Christianity. The foundation statement - the gospel in the least possible words - "Jesus Christ .... is Lord" is fundamentally a political statement. It is meant to imply not just "Jesus is my personal Lord & Saviour", but "Jesus Christ is Lord of the whole world, and therefore Caesar (or money, or the world economic bank, or peoples personal desires, or whatever) is not".

What does this mean? This means no legislation inspired by the bible, koran, torah, whatever. The reason for this is that often times what's best for human beings, as I've stated above, conflicts with people's beliefs. If you choose not to have an abortion, that's one thing. But if it doesn't harm you, legislation should not be passed making abortion or gay marriage illegal.

Abortion is a particularly difficult one to discuss, because unless we can agree how many people are involved we can't begin to agree on who should be able to affect whom. If the unborn is a full human life, then someone having an abortion is affecting that life in a very dramatic way.

In cases of individual morality - eg gay marriage, then it serves no purpose for religion or the world for Christians to insist on banning it.

Basically if religion were a truly personal way of bettering yourself, I would have no problem with it.

but that does not describe Christianity. Christianity includes that, but is far more broad in its implications.

My best friend is a devout christian and his father, who i consider a friend as well, is a pastor. I think the reason we get along so great is that he keeps his religion private.

If he really does, then he has missed most of the point of Christianity.

Does this sound like something we could work towards?

Not without compromising the faith out of recognition.
Having said that, Christians shouldn't be forcing moral codes onto other people except where that is necessary to protect a 3rd party.

 

[Key]

My apologies, for not responding to your post, it seemed a bit of a complex issue.

I think I've come to a realization of sorts; that religion really can help people better themselves to live healthy lives. I don't doubt that.

But...

I think the only real problem atheists have with religious people is that your beliefs impact everyone's lives. I wouldn't care one iota what you believe in your head as long as you don't prevent a woman from having an abortion because of your beliefs or that people don't drive planes into buildings because of them.

This is not a matter of Religion, but of persuasion. Anyone, despite their "religion" or "creed" can be influenced to take these steps, this is not isolated to religions, now I'll give, that Religion is used as a powerful persuasion tools, but that is the corruption of the individual using the "religion" for their own ends.

And this is your stand on peoples religion and it's affects upon your life, not all Atheist and "Other Religion" share this mentality. But in that case, thank you for sharing this belief.

That's where the line has to be drawn. The religious are focused on the afterlife, while a lot of atheists are more concerned about making life better here in this world, and the two often conflict.

This is also a misconception, the very fabric and foundation for many cultures and codes of civil conduct were built off of religious influence, and many of the cultures we have today are the product of Religious Codes and Moral Conduct written into Cultural Social Law.

None more so then the Christian faith, which not only has explanations of the afterlife, but also provides the code and moral stand on how to have a good physical life, even down to proper dietary lifestyle.

In this case, many of the Laws we have that deal with Moral and Cultural interaction among people, are built off the Code or Moral and Cultural Interaction in the Bible.

So, this should not be an issue of "Religion written into Law" as that was the way many Cultures and Civilizations were established to start off with. America being no different.

Yes, I know, when they were writing the Constitution, Our founding "fathers" were a bunch of Deist, and when they were burning the witches they were Christians, I know how the double standard is applied.

It is not true in any manner, shape of form, however, people like to try and twist this, to remove "Christians" from the foundation of their Country, it's sad, but that is the intent.

Well, Just like Stubby the War Hero, went from being a "Pit Bull" to a "Mixed Breed" because of the Hype around Pit Bulls today, that is how things go, Human corruption at it's best.

Let's take abortion for example.

Ok. Lets.

Christians are against abortion for religious reasons,

{puts on his flame resistant under britches}

I'm not.. so I do not see the issue.

but it makes sense that if a woman is raped, that she be able to abort the fetus.

She should be given the Choice, yes. But there would need to be strong circumstances, simple stupidity on your part, is not one of them.

Abortion exist, because of the Sin of Casual Sex, people treating their bodies like some dime store ride, and then not taking proper steps to prevent pregnancy. I am sorry, but a unborn child should not have to bear the burden of stupid people that can't control their hormones.

So, Sin, is a wonderful thing when you look at it, it compounds upon itself, the more of one sin that opens up, new and more intense sins come into play.

Casual Sex leading to Partial Birth Abortions.. I mean.. really.. You gotta admire this "devil" guy, for know how to work the system and play upon human corruption and weakness.

Basically if a woman wants an abortion, that means they don't want to have the child. whether its through rape or irrespinsibility, unwanted children are going to happen in this world no matter if you're religious or not.

An planned parenthood will give you FREE birth control pills, just to stop that level of Stupidity. And I for one Support any and all forms of Sex Education, and I support Planned Parenthood, and I believe that those Christians that try to make Planned Parenthood seem evil, really need to look in the Mirror to get a good look at what scum really looks like.

Lack of Sex Education, and Lack of people using proper means of control, are a problem.

The the bigger problem is, people have lost respect for themselves and commitment. If all the people in the World, would only have sex with their partner, in the vow of marriage, none of this would exist.

Again, you really got it hand it to the way sin works in our culture.

And unwanted children turn into criminals more often than not. So, I would much rather allow women to have abortions, if necessary, than have another potential criminal on our hands.

That is really an issue with the Government not knowing what the heck they are doing trying to raise these children.

Funny how that works, they tell me how I have to raise my child, and their batting record sucks.

As long as religion doesn't impact other people's lives, I'm willing to make a truce and realize that religion serves its purpose just as atheism does. But since not everyone believes in the afterlife, we all have to adjust and make sure we can live together and not impact each other's lives with our beliefs.

Well, that is really opening a door to allowing mass amounts of corruption to enter our everyday lives.

At what point can we stop sin, and how it affects us.

Look at it this way, Casual Sex ---> Abortion / Criminals

So, if one gets a foot hold, the next will get a foot hold, and then it will just sprial down, at what point, would you draw the line in the sand.

I had this discussion with someone, and by the end of it, they admitted that Animal Sex, Incest, Group Sex, Casual Sex, and even to some extent Sex with Minors,(legal age to marry in farming villages is still 13 in the USA) was all well and good, now the funny part was, at the outset of our discussion, they thought all of those things were wrong, but with enough conviction, and enough appeals, you can have people accept anything.

That is why some level of type of "Moral Code" need to be established and set down, so that we do not loose sight of where we are, and what we are doing.

What does this mean? This means no legislation inspired by the bible, koran, torah, whatever. The reason for this is that often times what's best for human beings, as I've stated above, conflicts with people's beliefs. If you choose not to have an abortion, that's one thing. But if it doesn't harm you, legislation should not be passed making abortion or gay marriage illegal.

Well, we are a Government by THE PEOPLE, as such, the Religion of THE PEOPLE, will influence the Government and the Country. Such is the way it should be in a Country like America, It should not be special interest groups (regardless of motive or belief) having the majority (who do not like their life style) have to accept what they are doing.

Now, what the religion of the People is, well that can change, as does what the population believes changes. If there was a majority of Atheist in this country, then I would expect their beliefs to have the strongest influence. That is the nature of what Our Government is supposed to be like.

Now, the Government is not supposed to be allowed to make rules or laws that influence your constitutional rights, but the next question would be, is an Abortion a "right" or a "privilege"?

Just as they are now putting up a whole ban on Pit Bulls, and Smokers, and then telling people that they have to loose weight.

Really, it's nothing new, having people influence the Government to pass laws, because a handful of people seem to think they know what is best for everyone else.

I for one, think that the Government needs to have it's hand tied behind it's back, and let us "PEOPLE" work it out, with out "big Brother" telling us what we should think and how we should act.

Basically if religion were a truly personal way of bettering yourself, I would have no problem with it. My best friend is a devout christian and his father, who i consider a friend as well, is a pastor. I think the reason we get along so great is that he keeps his religion private.

Good plan, you can not force people to believe.

Does this sound like something we could work towards?

We are humans, corrupt, evil, sin stained, and filled with ego and pride, it is a lovely dream, but it is not a reality. In the end, there will always be people who feel the need to impose their "I know better then you what is good for you" attitude on others, regardless of what creed or "religion" they follow.

Here's the way I see it, maybe I'm wrong here and there are more options, but I only see 3 outcomes here given all of our different religious beliefs.

1. We live together and figure out what's best for us as human beings while allowing anyone to worship as they see fit, as long as it doesn't effect others. This is not to say you have to shut up about religion in public or anything like that, but public laws and customs cannot be religion-specific.

Huh? That is the way it is now, most of the time.

The Removal of Local Customs, and the Removal of people expressing their Religious Belief is against the Constitution, as such, people should be free to express and practice their belief (as long as it does not endanger or injure anyone else).

2. Religion is banned alltogether, with the focus being shifted to what's best for individual human beings and man kind as a whole at all times.

That is a lovely dream, but, Communist China, and Russia, and other countries that "Banned Religion all together" really show, that they do not give a flying hoot about what is "Best" but only about what will control the people the "Best"

3. Religion continues as is. Basically, a fight between the religions and whoever survives the fighting will win. Meanwhile, lives are lost everyday as a result of this senseless fighting.

People will fight and kill each other no matter what, that is sin and corruption in our lives, We have pride and ego, greed, hate, lust, etc. This we will fight, and kill, and it does not really matter why, we will find reasons.

"You like Green Peas ! YOU MUST DIE!"... It's Humans... that is the way we are.

Religion is a means by which a Human is to tame their corrupted side.

It sometimes works... sometimes...

There is no other way a muslim and a christian can coexist when one despizes the other for their beliefs and both will try to impose each other's will on the other until one side is defeated. So basically, we're talking about option 3 as war.

Sure there is, we understand that, for me to say what I want to say, You have to be able to say what you want to say.

It's funny, a French Agnostic said this Best.. "I may disagree with what you have to say, But I will defend with my life, your right to say it"...

Yes.. that is also a dream, and everyone wants what they don't want to hear to go away, and they only want to be able to say what they want to say.. that is Pride... and Humans have WAY to MUCH of it... for there to ever be a truly peaceful end.. that is why God will have to come down personally and correct this issue for us...

If you have any other ways of avoiding conflict, please let me know.

Really.. No.. I can't stop it.. I can only choose not to get involved in it, if more people walked away from the fight, there would be no one left to fight... so I am walking away from the fight..

You tell me about your evolution and your atheism, I'll tell you about my Creation and God, and in the end, maybe we might never agree with with each other, but just learn to live with other.

Hey there Key!

Doesn't the bible do the same for itself? Doesn't the only evidence that supports the bible....come from the bible?

Why yes it does.. but the Bible does not claim to be a Peer Reviewed Scientific Theory. It claims to be a multi-author book of God.

Different rules apply to each of them.

I would like to get your opinion on my post as well if you get a second.

Thanks

Sure thing, I hope I have provided you an answer to your questions, and I hope that I have given you food for thought.

God Bless

Key

 

[Sketcher]

I'm against abortion because that unborn baby is a person, with rights just as the mother is. The right of other people's to life trumps my right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, if my liberty and pursuit of happiness required me killing someone, I'm outta luck. This is the same with women and abortion. I cannot abide abortion while other forms of murder are still illegal. If people want to live other sorts of immoral lifestyles, I can find it within myself to tolerate that - but killing other human beings on demand is on an entirely different level.

 

[Zocrates]

Hey Key,

There's no way I can quote your post without sending this board into chaos from the size it would take up. But I'll make a couple comments from the things taht stood out to me.

First of all, I find this notion of "sin" as it relates to humans to be pretty disturbing, to say the least. I've always heard people say "Let's thank god because without him I am nothing," and I also hear (just as you have said) that humans are "corrupt, evil, sin stained, and filled with ego and pride" which I couldn't disagree with more.

Do you honestly walk down the street and see people raping and killing one another at will or something? While there are a great number of people in need of a moral adjustment, I don't think we're that bad as a species to say we're "inherently sinful and evil".

It has nothing to do with being arrogant or anything like that, but I have enough confidence in myself that I believe I'm a very good example of a human being. It just baffles me that so many christians think they are worthless without god and that they, as human beings, are inherently sinful, evil creatures. what kind of mind trip is that to live with forever?

You brought this up in the context of "casual sex", which I also disagree with that it's some abomination. Anything done in excess is bad, even love. Your bible may say that casual sex is bad, but you cannot convince me that casual sex with my fiance is harmful to our species. Safe casual sex has plenty of benefits aside from the obvious. It can relieve stress (something everyone could benefit from) and can provide a cardiovascular workout just off the top of my head.

But yes, anything done in excess and wrecklessly can be harmful....anything....including praciticing religion. And I know you're not for banning religion just because you have a good number of whackos out there ruining it for everyone, right?

But these are a few things that I'm talking about when I say religion has an influence on things that should not be influenced by religion. If you can give me practical reasons why we shouldn't abort children, have casual sex, and legalize gay marriage outside of the bible, then we can sit down and have that discussion.

You also stated that "there will always be fighting" no matter what we ban, because we're humans. Well, that should never be a reason not to do what's right. That's like saying we shouldn't frown upon racism because people will just find another reason to hate each other. If it turns out that religion does more harm at the end of the day than good (like racism) then we should probably move on without it, but I'm starting to believe that it's probably not the case. What I do believe now, is that we have to stop allowing our religion to dictate others' lives. Since religion isn't something you can prove (it's all on faith), you can't impose that belief on others since you can't justify it accross the board to everyone as you would, say, the benefits of sleep.

 

[Zocrates]

I'm against abortion because that unborn baby is a person, with rights just as the mother is. The right of other people's to life trumps my right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, if my liberty and pursuit of happiness required me killing someone, I'm outta luck. This is the same with women and abortion. I cannot abide abortion while other forms of murder are still illegal. If people want to live other sorts of immoral lifestyles, I can find it within myself to tolerate that - but killing other human beings on demand is on an entirely different level.

I personally don't see fetuses as humans until they reach a certain development stage. That stage for me is when they can live independently of their mother. If the fetus is a human, they would be able to live independently of their mother as (most of) us humans do. Just my 2 cents.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I think Key has cornered the market in thoroughly excellent replies, but am gonna throw my two cents in, if that's k...

I think I've come to a realization of sorts; that religion really can help people better themselves to live healthy lives. I don't doubt that.

But...

I think the only real problem atheists have with religious people is that your beliefs impact everyone's lives. I wouldn't care one iota what you believe in your head as long as you don't prevent a woman from having an abortion because of your beliefs or that people don't drive planes into buildings because of them.

That's where the line has to be drawn. The religious are focused on the afterlife, while a lot of atheists are more concerned about making life better here in this world, and the two often conflict.

Let's take abortion for example. Christians are against abortion for religious reasons, but it makes sense that if a woman is raped, that she be able to abort the fetus. Basically if a woman wants an abortion, that means they don't want to have the child. whether its through rape or irrespinsibility, unwanted children are going to happen in this world no matter if you're religious or not. And unwanted children turn into criminals more often than not. So, I would much rather allow women to have abortions, if necessary, than have another potential criminal on our hands.

As long as religion doesn't impact other people's lives, I'm willing to make a truce and realize that religion serves its purpose just as atheism does. But since not everyone believes in the afterlife, we all have to adjust and make sure we can live together and not impact each other's lives with our beliefs.

What does this mean? This means no legislation inspired by the bible, koran, torah, whatever. The reason for this is that often times what's best for human beings, as I've stated above, conflicts with people's beliefs. If you choose not to have an abortion, that's one thing. But if it doesn't harm you, legislation should not be passed making abortion or gay marriage illegal.

Basically if religion were a truly personal way of bettering yourself, I would have no problem with it. My best friend is a devout christian and his father, who i consider a friend as well, is a pastor. I think the reason we get along so great is that he keeps his religion private.

Does this sound like something we could work towards?

Hmm... well the concept of bettering oneself is very 20th Century and new agey, in many ways.

The thing you have to remember is Christians *know* the Truth. We have a living, breathing relationship with Him, so while may feel Christianity is forcing itself upon others, it's more that Christianity is the Truth, and people that know that feel led to share it. We're *commanded* to.

I know that may seem terribly arrogant, but that's the thing: Christians and atheists are just coming at this from entirely different places. What many atheists see as groundless arrogance, Christians see as simple Truth, because we *know* it is. Many Christians have experienced or witnessed miracles, and we see God working in our lives every minute of every day. While much of our faith is, literally, based on faith, it is based also on a world of fact. Others may not view that evidence as fact, which makes it somewhat subjective, but it doesn't negate its immutability.

I'm not sure Christians are focused on the "afterlife", so much as once we are justified, we realise that this life isn't our home. We're just here for a tiny visit, in the grand scheme of things, and we will be in Heaven for eternity. None of us can even fathom the concept of eternity, but we know where we will be for all of it. So while many atheists think their 75-odd years is the be all and end all, Christians know otherwise. It doesn't mean the ficus is taken off living life, but it puts it into perspective.

The issue of morality is an interesting one because, if not from God, where do you suppose your inherent sense of morality comes from?

And as to atheism... the thing is, atheistsic governments have killed more people in the 20th Century than anyone else. A terrorist murdering in the name of Christ is distorting Christianity, but Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Chairman Mao were all being utterly faithful atheism when they killed millions. It's not the cure-all, in any way.

 

[Digit]

I echo XianJedi's thoughts here, in that no we most certainly cannot work towards something like this. First, I will not compromise my faith and the message of God in order to improve relationships with people in this world. Just as, with or without religion, I would not lie to someone in order to get along better with them. I most certainly will not do so with God in my life. I feel obligated to point out that the if more people upheld Christian morals and God's laws, we would have very little need for systems like abortion, for keys and locks on all our homes and cars, for CCTV and security system. The world is stuck in a self-ratifying and self-propogating system of sin and anti-sin measures. Cheers, Digit

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

We can't expect to get along with Theist when they can't even get along among themselves.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

We can't expect to get along with Theist when they can't even get along among themselves.

Hehe, you may have a point. But we're trying, and it would behoove us *all* to try. But if you shut it down without even trying, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy

 

[Key]

Hey Key,

There's no way I can quote your post without sending this board into chaos from the size it would take up. But I'll make a couple comments from the things taht stood out to me.

Fair enough, but I hope I have given you food for thought. If I have, then that is the best I could have hoped for.

First of all, I find this notion of "sin" as it relates to humans to be pretty disturbing, to say the least. I've always heard people say "Let's thank god because without him I am nothing," and I also hear (just as you have said) that humans are "corrupt, evil, sin stained, and filled with ego and pride" which I couldn't disagree with more.

Ok, now in no way am I trying to be rude, but, I think this does contradict itself in some manner.

Allow me to explain, Sin, is like an addiction, once you start doing it, stopping takes an turning point in your life, as well as immense willpower, or even a power greater then yourself to overcome it.

Ask AA, or Quitline, and a bunch of other "Addiction Help Programs" the level and self control it takes to try and overcome an addiction.

However, the first step to any form of overcoming anything, is to realize that it is a problem. If you do not realize that it is a problem, then there is no way you can overcome it.

Now, in the case of Sin, many non-Christians, do not, or don't want to, accept that this is a problem, that there is issues with this, and that these things are corrupting, like say, you start stealing pennies, and you end robbing banks, you will spiral down, unless you take a stand and say "I have to stop, I have a problem" and until that day, you will just continue to do as you want, and it will overcome you.

Do you honestly walk down the street and see people raping and killing one another at will or something?

No, but, that does not mean I do not see sin everyday,

However, just to give a reference, I do read the paper, and every day, even on the holidays, and week ends. There is no break point, there is no day, that someone in America is not being raped and killed.

Which is kind of sad when you think about it.

While there are a great number of people in need of a moral adjustment, I don't think we're that bad as a species to say we're "inherently sinful and evil".

One, I never said, we are Inherently Sinful, that is putting words into my mouth, and I would so very much, appreciate it, if you did not do that, it would make for such a better and more pleasing discussion.

Now, to answer your question, we are Corrupted BY Sin, as we surround ourselves with sin in our lives, we have no alternative but to be influenced and affected by it, which is another wonderful aspect of Sin, it influences people on a cultural whole, it does not just stop each generation, we will be engulfed by the sin of our world, as we grow up, our innocence gets distorted and destroyed by the sinful nature of our culture and those around us.

You see, sin compounds on itself, each generation inherits the sins and the damage the previous generation did to their people and their culture.

It's a complex thing to explain.

It has nothing to do with being arrogant or anything like that, but I have enough confidence in myself that I believe I'm a very good example of a human being.

I'll put money on the fact that by the time you could speak your primary language, you were lying.

Now you will forgive me, but I will have to say that does not sound like a pretty Good Example.

Don't feel bad however, your just like everyone else, as with most people, they fall into the Trap that thinking, "Not doing overt Evil" is being Good, where, this is simply not the situation, not doing overt evil things, is just that, not doing evil, this does not make one good, or moral. It simply does not make them "Grossly Immoral".

In that front, I'll give you, maybe you are not Grossly Immoral, but that still is a far cry from bing Good.

It just baffles me that so many christians think they are worthless without god and that they, as human beings, are inherently sinful, evil creatures. what kind of mind trip is that to live with forever?

Humm I did not sat worthless.. but...

Well, ok, without God, sure, we are just a vile destructive lifeforms on a planet that will consume and destroy endlessly, with no regard to finding an equilibrium with our environment, much like a Virus, but unlike a Virus, we do not do as we do, simply to survive, a Human lacks contentment, they will destroy, no matter what is provided to them, simply because they desire to destroy.

However, With God in our lives, we become worth so much, we become something more then simply one of 6.4 billion "organic pain collectors racing to oblivion" (Dogbert).

We become a love creation of God, and that gives us purpose and meaning to our lives, it makes us special and valuable, as well as makes others, valuable to us to see our fellow humans as more then Chemical Reactions and Electrical Impulses, but a Children of God.

You brought this up in the context of "casual sex", which I also disagree with that it's some abomination.

Abomination? No..... a Sin? Yes...

Anything done in excess is bad, even love.

Casual Sex has nothing to do with Love...

Your bible may say that casual sex is bad, but you cannot convince me that casual sex with my fiance is harmful to our species.

Odd oxymoron you have there.. casual sex with your finance... not sure how that works....

Safe casual sex has plenty of benefits aside from the obvious. It can relieve stress (something everyone could benefit from) and can provide a cardiovascular workout just off the top of my head.

Ok, first off, none of those can not be obtained from sex with your wife.. Umm have you read the bible.. about married relationships?

One major aspect is, "Safe".. really.. you can't have safe casual sex, you can only have protected casual sex, or even, "safer" casual sex, as no sex is truly safe, unless both partners are clean, and there is a continual commitment between them, to maintain that they will remain clean, and the only sure fire way to do that, is to only have sex with the one person, that you know is clean, as other people can lie.

Now there are other problems, Like Education, now, many people are not educated at all, about the dangers of sex, not only is "pregnancy" an issue, but there are what.. 132 different STDs out there.. some of them.. have no cure, and others will kill you. That really makes it a small problem that if your biggest worry while you are having casual sex, or in an "Open Relationship" that all you will do is get your partner (or yourself) pregnant, as there are FAR worse things that can happen to you, then you are gifted with the blessing of bringing a new life into this world, I mean the Horrors of STD's are not something that should be downplayed.

Lifetime Monogamy is safe, Everything else... well has risks... maybe the brief few moments of sexual pleasure and release are worth those dangers... I guess they seem to be.. until you have to face those dangers.. until it is you that are suddenly paying the price...

But yes, anything done in excess and wrecklessly can be harmful....anything....including praciticing religion.

I'll agree, anything done in Excess, anything at all... can be destructive..

Including.. Religion, or the lack there of...

And I know you're not for banning religion just because you have a good number of whackos out there ruining it for everyone, right?

Well.. there are "Wackos" in every "party".. so.. if we had to ban something because of a few "Wackos" there would be nothing left.. not even Atheism...

But these are a few things that I'm talking about when I say religion has an influence on things that should not be influenced by religion. If you can give me practical reasons why we shouldn't abort children, have casual sex, and legalize gay marriage outside of the bible, then we can sit down and have that discussion.

Well.. aborting Children is an easy one... Would you like to have your right to life.. taken away?

Why are they worthless because they are in a womb... ? I guess if you could explain that one to me.. I guess then I could have no issue with abortion...

I guess.. people have too much pride and self ego.. they think that some how they are special, that their "Lifestyle" is more important then dealing with the responsibility of their own actions..

But if you do not see a problem with that.. then you have succumbed to the sins of this world, you have blinded yourself with the decay and corruption regarding this issue.

What you have to realize is that if you are engulfed in the sinful world, you will not be able to see anything but the sinful world as the only world you have, and in the end, you will embrace it, make it your own, and be a part of it, like a bad oder in the house, eventually you become numb to it, so much so, that you can not even smell it anymore. Sin is the same way...

Only until you have gotten out to the fresh air, have removed yourself from the smell, and then go back, to smell it again, and realize that it is there.

You also stated that "there will always be fighting" no matter what we ban, because we're humans. Well, that should never be a reason not to do what's right.

And what is right? Do you have it figured out? See this is not a snide question, it a viable question, I used to think I knew right from wrong, that I had it figured out, but, when I became a Christian, it opened up a world to me, and realization, on a level I never knew existed. We only have what we have to work with to make a moral judgment, this judgment is based on what we know, and the limits of our human self, as corrupted as it may be. That is why people can find no fault in many things that we call sin.. it is not because simply they are corrupt and want to be that way.. it is because they are corrupted and do not realize it.

If we can rationalize it, we will do it. Even if what we have rationalized is not anything but evil or vile, we have justified that it is the right thing to do.

Religion, Like Christianity, sets the standard, of what is right and wrong, it gives us a constant and consistent measuring stick to work with, when we ourselves are neither.

That's like saying we shouldn't frown upon racism because people will just find another reason to hate each other.

Let people hate each other, and Racism is alive and well, those people that would have been raciest are, those that would not have been are not, and those that would have just followed the cultural flow, are the only ones affected.

Just like today, with the media hype about pit bulls, those people that know these dogs and love them... will love them.. those that know the dog and hate it.. will hate them.. and the rest (the Majority) are ignorant and will be influenced by the media and believe what they are told.

That is the way of things.. that is part of the Human condition, and it's corruption. People will be what the culture makes them into.

If it turns out that religion does more harm at the end of the day than good (like racism) then we should probably move on without it, but I'm starting to believe that it's probably not the case.

Religion, at least as far as the Christian Religion goes, is about learning how to live with the people around you, and love yourself in the process, it is about how to rise above the life that you should be stuck in, in a way, it gives the human a mans by which they can overcome themselves and be the best person that they could be.

But, with anything, people will abuse the banner of religion, simply because it is a good tool of persuasion. People will follow religious leaders, just as they would follow government leaders, just as they will follow any truly charismatic leader. To these people, Religion is little more then a tool to persuade people to do their bidding, and if what they want people to do, is against the religion, oh well then lets hope they don't wise up.

Just like the Media, and Government, it is the uneducated masses that flock to them, and are controlled by them. People will... blindly follow authority... it is a corruption of man.. the necessity of a leader for the human herd.

It is one of our many.. so great many.. faults...

But those that learn the religion, those that Know what Christ taught, will speak out, and preach against, and as such, has been the case throughout history.

That is why it seems the "Church is fighting the Church" so much in history..

However, if not Religion.. they will use something else... Communism is a fine example.

After all. think about it.. people have killed themselves over games and movies... so.. in many cases.. humans have proven.. they are just looking to be taken advantage of...

If a religious leader can lead these people to the path of Christ, and give them a purpose and better then life, then great.. such would be the ideal. It's not the norm sadly.

What I do believe now, is that we have to stop allowing our religion to dictate others' lives. Since religion isn't something you can prove (it's all on faith), you can't impose that belief on others since you can't justify it accross the board to everyone as you would, say, the benefits of sleep.

Huh? Yes you can.. You can justify the benifits of sleep, and a problems of the lack there of.

That is one of the things that is wonderful about the Christian faith, following it's moral code, offers no negative impacts on your life (beyond it does not seem like a whole lotta fun), and it has been proven that following this life style can be very good for your physical and mental health.

However.. that is if you follow what Christ Taught... not some preacher who feels that it is a good thing to just add burden to the people and wants to add control where there was not supposed to be any.

But distortion of scripture.. seems to be a pastime of many "brands" that claim to be Christian. Such is also a problem.

I can say, from what I have seen here in my limited exposure, that there are some very major misconceptions regarding the Christian faith and what the Scripture teaches.

I hope I have given you some food for thought and answered your questions.

God Bless

Key

 

[Zocrates]

I think Key has cornered the market in thoroughly excellent replies, but am gonna throw my two cents in, if that's k...

Hmm... well the concept of bettering oneself is very 20th Century and new agey, in many ways.

The thing you have to remember is Christians *know* the Truth. We have a living, breathing relationship with Him, so while may feel Christianity is forcing itself upon others, it's more that Christianity is the Truth, and people that know that feel led to share it. We're *commanded* to.

I know that may seem terribly arrogant, but that's the thing: Christians and atheists are just coming at this from entirely different places. What many atheists see as groundless arrogance, Christians see as simple Truth, because we *know* it is. Many Christians have experienced or witnessed miracles, and we see God working in our lives every minute of every day. While much of our faith is, literally, based on faith, it is based also on a world of fact. Others may not view that evidence as fact, which makes it somewhat subjective, but it doesn't negate its immutability.

You have as much evidence to justify your belief as any extremist muslim does.....which is no evidence whatsoever. You reference your bible and your "heart and feelings" to justify your belief, which is exactly what anyone can do to justify their belief. There is no difference in the evidence you have for your belief and the evidence that extremeist muslims have.

The issue of morality is an interesting one because, if not from God, where do you suppose your inherent sense of morality comes from?

My morality comes from using my brain to figure out that if I hope to be treated well by others....I should probably treat others well. No bible involved, it's just common sense. People have led moral lives without the bible for centuries, and they will as long as human beings walk the earth.

And as to atheism... the thing is, atheistsic governments have killed more people in the 20th Century than anyone else. A terrorist murdering in the name of Christ is distorting Christianity, but Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Chairman Mao were all being utterly faithful atheism when they killed millions. It's not the cure-all, in any way.

Straw man argument.

People that kill for religion kill in the name of their religion, but the people you listed above did not kill in the name of atheism. I don't know how else to say it to christians that atheism is not a belief. If you say that you don't believe in unicorns, that makes you an aunicornist. Does that mean I can tell anything else about you other than that you don't believe in unicorns? No. The people you listed above were power hugry jerks, religious or no, and it had nothing to do with atheism. If you want to bring up people that have killed millions in the name of religion, we can start another thread if you wish.

 

[Zocrates]

Hehe, you may have a point. But we're trying, and it would behoove us *all* to try. But if you shut it down without even trying, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy

But your version of "trying" involves converting everyone to your set of beliefs, which is wrong.

My compromise is to let everyone continue to believe what they choose, but to not interfere with anyone else's lives. Your set of unproven beliefs cannot dictate how someone else lives their life.