Micaiah said:
The explanation to the above passage is relatively simple if you know meaning of the english terms
But Paul wrote in Greek. So what you
really need is familiarity with Greek, don't you? So, before we get into this in detail, let's check the translations of Romans 5:12-19. This is KJV
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. "
This is the RSV:
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--
sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many."
However, before I get into the specifics, I should have learned by now that literalists take even the Bible out of context. We have to go up to the beginning of the chapter to see where Paul was coming from.
"Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God."
Paul is emphasizing the
reconciliation with God thru Jesus, not how we got separated.
6:"While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man--though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die.
But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.Rom 5:11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.Rom 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--
Paul's (and God's) purpose is now much plainer. This isn't a treatise on how sin came into the world, this is a treatise on how we are saved from
our sins and how we get reconciled with God.
Sin came into the world because of man's disobedience to God's command. As the representitive of the human race, Adam bears responsibility for sin entering the world.
What is an "archetype"? It is a
representation for all. Thank you, Micaiah, you have just backed up and agreed with our interpretation of Genesis 2-3 and of Paul. Adam
stands for each of us. He is our "representative" and represents our individual behavior. But look at Romans 5:1-11. Jesus is reconciling
us with God and that God did this
before we had corrected ourselves. God made this effort for us while we were in sin, not forgave us
after we had pulled ourselves out of sin.
As warned by God, the result of disobedience would be death. That occured both spiritually in the separation man experience from God, and physically. Sickness and death entered the world as the result of sin.
I partly agree with the first sentence and the first clause of the second.
That is, the consequence of disobedience is separation and the consequence of separation is spiritual death. However, the physical death and the conclusions that sickness and physical death entered the world as the result of sin simply isn't justified by a plain reading of Genesis 3. Nor is Paul saying that here. You have gone way off the scriptural reservation and made up a theory of your own. A theory I say is falsified by scripture and the data God left us in His Creation.
When God created the world, He proclaimed it very good. It was a perfect environment, free from the effects of sin.
The first sentence is accurate, but the second is pure speculation. Nor is your implication that the effects of sin is pain, suffering, and death scriptural. Humans were allowed to eat agricultural plants, which means death for the plant.
That is why the notion that God used evolution which involves pain, suffereing and death is wrong. Sin forever changed the world.
There is nothing in Genesis 1-3 that says that pain, suffering, and death were absent before the Fall. This is pure speculation on your part. The punishment of God to Adam and Eve is spelled out very specifically in Genesis 3. While a few things were changed, those are very specific. And the changes do not include what you are claiming here.
But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,
All experienced the painful consequences of sin, even during the time when there was no legal framework to define sin.
You ignored the "sin is not taken into account when there is no law". Here Paul, quite frankly, is contradicting himself. If death is a consequence of sin, and sin is not taken into account when there is no law, then there was no sin. Paul has a problem here with his Jewish background. You are saying people sin exists whether there is a legal framework or not. I tend to agree, but our stance is against the plain reading of this verse. I would say that you can disobey God even when you don't know what the rules are. And this is, indeed, a basic legal principle: you can get convicted of a crime even tho you had no idea the behavior was a crime.
However, if we go back to verses 1-11 this becomes much plainer. Paul is saying that all of us are cut off from God whether we break a specific commandment or not. That our behavior in general is disobedience.
All men have inherited Adam's sinful nature. All are born inherently bad. That is manifest by the bad things every person does.
Ah, changed the terms. Now you are talking about a "sinful nature" and not sin itself. When you say "bad things
every person does" you are coming around to our point of view, Micaiah. Those "bad things" are
our sins. Not Adam's sin. However, this still is against what Paul said: "death spread to all men because all men sinned" Paul did
not say that they "inherited" Adam's sinful nature. Paul does not say (and God did not inspire him to say) why it is that all men sinned! You made this one up yourself, Micaiah. It is not God inspired. God left the reason all men sinned conspicuously blank.
Just as Adam's sin infected all humanity, the death of the God-Man Jesus Christ, made it possible for all humanity to be delivered from the sin that enslaved, and the inevitable consequences.
Paul's message is certainly that last: that Jesus' death reconciles all to God. It is a gift that applies to everyone. But Paul's major message in 1-11 is that the gift is not dependent on what we have done. The gift is given even while we are sinners and cut off from God. We don't have to do anything to receive the gift -- like stop disobeying.
Here again, Adam is simply, as you put it, representing all people. Instead of saying "hey you, you sin", Paul is using Adam as the representative for everyone.
My parent's conduct may give me a predisposition to a life of crime, but under a fair legal system, I should not be punished for the wrong they have done. However, if I choose to follow their foot steps, and live a life of crime, I can expect to be punished for my actions.
Yes, for
your actions. Not for theirs. However, do they "inject" you with a crime-committing virus? Or, more accurately, are their
crimes a virus that you get infected with to commit more crimes? Remember, you said "Adam's
sin infected all humanity". How can that be? Unless sin is a microbe or virus or unless Adam specifically taught his kids to disobey God and their kids taught their kids, etc. But your parents taught you to
obey God, didn't they? So there is no way for the "infection" to travel.
We inherited Adam's sinful nature.
Will you pick an idea and stick with it? You have
1. Adam's
sin infecting everyone.
2. Adam's sinful nature being inherited.
3. Adam's sin being inherited.
It can't be all of them.
Let's try this. All humans sin. But not because of a literal Adam. Instead, we have a sinful nature precisely because we evolved. Natural selection chooses selfishness. The whole idea of the selfish gene, remember? And selfishness automatically results in disobedience to others because we choose what
we want and not what is good for others.
Evolution actually solves your dilemma, Micaiah! No, we don't have a literal Adam, but we do have a sinful nature. And we got it as a byproduct of the method by which we were created:
evolution!
However, Christ made it possible for us to live a life that pleases God. Each is responsible for their own destiny - heaven or hell.
That's not what Romans 5 says. Paul says that Jesus' death reconciled us to God. And that death, with the reconciliation, is a
gift from God. It has nothing to do with living a life that pleases God. The gift is given when we are not living such a life. It has nothing to do with our responsibility. It is purely of God and from God. People have nothing to do with it at all.
Micaiah, if you are going to live by scripture, then at least
read it and stop making it up.
