Theistic Evolution

[JacobHall86]

But Both Genesis and the Gospels are Historical Accounts. If one is just telling us about something, why arent both doing that?

 

[Jedi]

But Both Genesis and the Gospels are Historical Accounts. If one is just telling us about something, why arent both doing that?

Again, it's the literary style that changes. You can write history in a number of styles: allegory, metaphore, poetry, historical pros, etc. They are all "historical accounts," just not told in the same way with the same facts emphasized. Remember that these bits of scripture are written thousands of years apart by different authors to different audiences in different cultures. Don't expect everyone to write out the facts and details the same way a contemporary American journalist would.

 

[JacobHall86]

But who is to say that Genesis isnt in the same style as the Gospels?

 

[Jedi]

But who is to say that Genesis isnt in the same style as the Gospels?

First, we should distinguish between "Genesis" and the "Creation Story." It's believed there are several different authors to Genesis written (and refined?) at different time periods because of a difference in writing style. Focusing in on the creation account, the imagery and systematic unfolding of the story makes the account less literal than, say, the gospels. Even some of the events are very difficult to understand if one takes a strictly literal reading of the text (e.g. Adam being created, having enough time to feel lonely, name all the animals in God's creation only to find no suitable helper, be put to sleep, God performing surgery, Adam waking up, and God bringing Eve to him all within a literal 24-hour time span).

I'm sure a more literary specialized person could tell you more, but the styles are certainly different. The gospels and epistles have a difficult time making any sense at all if not taken as a literal, historical account. The same just isn't true for the creation account in Genesis.

 

[DragnGT]

Writing style can change from author to author but as long as the facts remain the same then the same purpose of the story is told.

 

[JacobHall86]

First, we should distinguish between "Genesis" and the "Creation Story." It's believed there are several different authors to Genesis written (and refined?) at different time periods because of a difference in writing style. Focusing in on the creation account, the imagery and systematic unfolding of the story makes the account less literal than, say, the gospels. Even some of the events are very difficult to understand if one takes a strictly literal reading of the text (e.g. Adam being created, having enough time to feel lonely, name all the animals in God's creation only to find no suitable helper, be put to sleep, God performing surgery, Adam waking up, and God bringing Eve to him all within a literal 24-hour time span).

I'm sure a more literary specialized person could tell you more, but the styles are certainly different. The gospels and epistles have a difficult time making any sense at all if not taken as a literal, historical account. The same just isn't true for the creation account in Genesis.

I am unaware of any theologion who says anyone other than Moses wrote Genesis.

THe same is true for the Creation account for Genesis.

Besides, saying all that cant happen in one day questions the power of God.

 

[Jedi]

I am unaware of any theologion who says anyone other than Moses wrote Genesis.

THe same is true for the Creation account for Genesis.

You really need to get out more then.

Moses has traditionally been the author of the first five books of the Old Testament (the Torah) but most contemporary theologians just don’t hold on to this tradition any longer. Writing styles change numerous times through the different books, which shouldn’t happen (or at least be very minor) if they were written by the same author, not to mention that Deuteronomy 34:5-7 records Moses’ death. How could that be if Moses was the author? It’s far more plausible to conclude someone else wrote this account than to think Moses wrote his own obituary.

Besides, saying all that cant happen in one day questions the power of God.

It’s just not necessary to squeeze all those events into a literal 24-hour period. The text itself favors a non-literal understanding of “days” (Hebrew “yom” which is used elsewhere to refer to an indefinite period of time, e.g. “the day of our Lord&#8221 and to interpret it otherwise involves some pretty impressive intellectual gymnastics.

 

[JacobHall86]

What contemporary theologians?

(dude, im gonna go ahead and tell you if you say tony campola im gonna stop reading).

 

[Jedi]

What contemporary theologians?

Nearly all of my theology professors at Hardin-Simmons University (Dr. McGraw, Dr. Pigott [especially Dr. Pigott. This woman knows more about the Old Testament and Hebrew than I could hope to learn in 10 life times], Dr. Smith, Dr. Frampton, Dr. Lyle, Dr. Stiver, etc) along with Dr. Norman Geisler (my favorite apologist). Most of the books I've read on the subject also tend to stray away from the traditional idea that Moses wrote the Torah. In fact, everyone I've discussed the topic with who seemed to have even an inkling of knowledge concerning the writing style, culture, and history behind the Torah didn't seem to fond of the idea that Moses wrote it.

 

[JacobHall86]

Im not going to count professers, and so that leaves one guy who says it.

Im not big on contemp. theologians. Adrian Rogers was one of the last great ones.

 

[Jedi]

Im not going to count professers, and so that leaves one guy who says it.

Why not? They have doctoral degrees and teach this stuff all year long in Universities. If you don't think them credible, I'd be interested to know who is.

Further still, I mentioned there are countless books that discuss this topic, nearly all of them explaining how the textual evidence suggests that Moses didn't write the Torah. If you don't believe me, go to the library or to some theological journal and look it up. By all means, go ahead. I've read enough books and have listened to enough lectures to rest confidently in what the textual evidence suggests about its authorship.

 

[KillerV]

It tells a story but in a poetic fashion. Look at the literary style itself – it’s as clear as day.

wow sir you are pretty argumenitive. LoL.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Job isn't there to fill up space. It might be in a poetic sence but still is God's word. if you don't believe his word then we are all serving a lier.



I wouldn’t rest on that so literally. We’re talking about imagery and symbolism here, not a science description. Some suggest “tail” refers to the trunk of an elephant, but in all probability the word is being used as a euphemism, referring to the male genitalia. Support for this is based on another meaning of the Hebrew word "move" which means "extend" and on the second part of verse 17 describing the sinew around its "stones" [some translations "thighs," the Vulgate uses the word "testiculorum"]. It’s also interesting to note that one of the Russian words for hippopotomus is “behemoth.”

The Hebrew word "zanab" is translated as "tail" not trunk.
The book of "Judges" chapter 15 also uses the word "zanab" speaking of the tails of animals. Clearly God does indeed know the difference.


Further still, "a cursory knowledge of apatosaurus dentition shows that, though it was most definitely herbivorous, this dinosaur could not and did not "eateth grass like an ox" for two reasons: 1) grasses were not yet found in the apatosurus's environment and 2) apatosurus had needle-shaped teeth best suited for stripping leaves off of branches" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth).

This is presuming, of course, that the behemoth mentioned here is a real animal at all and not a symbolic metaphor

All dinos ate grass ,if you knew scripture,not just science books, no one ate meat before the flood.

 

[KillerV]

One would also note that Kent Hovind is not a doctor of anything. His degree comes from an institution with no accreditation, and thus has all of the value of one that I print off myself. He is, however, very good at sprinkling enough science into his evangelism to convince people who don't actually know anything about the issues at hand.

LoL do you know how many evolutionists have battled Hovind his other fellow creationists? they had no kind of rebuttle! not even the proffessors at Berkley...I have seen it. So keep getting all your info from them....

 

[KillerV]

To the OP sorry for derailing this thread.....hopefully it will go back on topic.

 

[B®ent]

Ok, I feel kinda dumb for asking this, but I have heard a lot about Theistic Evolution, and I am not quite sure what it is, and what the beliefs are. Would someone please explain it to me?

The belief that the Bible doesn't mean what it says (essentially making it a fable). According to TE, God created mankind not from dust of the earth in a single day, but rather from primordial slime over a process of billions of years.

 

[Jedi]

Job isn't there to fill up space. It might be in a poetic sence but still is God's word. if you don't believe his word then we are all serving a lier.

It’s not a matter of believing or not believing His word but a matter of understanding what His word says.

The Hebrew word "zanab" is translated as "tail" not trunk.
The book of "Judges" chapter 15 also uses the word "zanab" speaking of the tails of animals. Clearly God does indeed know the difference.

And when I say “That couple slept together,” do you think I don’t understand what the word “slept” means or that I really just mean they had a pleasant nap side-by-side? Euphemisms abound in scripture – especially in poetry.

All dinos ate grass ,if you knew scripture,not just science books, no one ate meat before the flood.

Oh, I know scripture very well and nowhere does it state that all Dinosaurs ate only grass. For Heaven’s sake, look at their teeth. You don’t honestly think they just magically transformed into points after the Noahic flood, do you (which, by the way, in all probability was a local flood – not global)? Essentially all the fossils we have of ancient creatures date back much earlier than Noah’s flood – and their anatomy is such to prevent them from eating grass.

The belief that the Bible doesn't mean what it says (essentially making it a fable).

Eh, careful there. Simply because someone has reason to believe the Bible says something different from what you believe it says does not mean the issue is "believing what the Bible says;" rather, it 's an issue of "what is the Bible saying?" To take something literally that was meant metaphorically (or symbolically) is just as wrong as taking something metaphorically that was meant literally. The coin flips on both sides.

 

[JacobHall86]

Why not? They have doctoral degrees and teach this stuff all year long in Universities. If you don't think them credible, I'd be interested to know who is.

Further still, I mentioned there are countless books that discuss this topic, nearly all of them explaining how the textual evidence suggests that Moses didn't write the Torah. If you don't believe me, go to the library or to some theological journal and look it up. By all means, go ahead. I've read enough books and have listened to enough lectures to rest confidently in what the textual evidence suggests about its authorship.

ACtually its for two reasons, outside of their schools they dont carry much academic weight, and I go to a Baptist Seminary, so I could site all those professors and it would be a "who can get more professers" thing.

 

[Jedi]

ACtually its for two reasons, outside of their schools they dont carry much academic weight, and I go to a Baptist Seminary, so I could site all those professors and it would be a "who can get more professers" thing.

That's why numerous professors of mine are included in the Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, huh? Yeah, they don't carry academic weight.

Further still, I don't see the point of trying to appeal to authority when I've already given reasons why Moses is generally no longer thought to be the author of the Torah.