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Theistic Evolution vs. creationism

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California Tim

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grmorton said:
First off, your assumption that all sedimentary layers require hundreds of thousands of years to accumulate is silly.
I believe the issue at hand is whether or not the strata envoping the Polystrate Fossils in question was considered to have been formed over an extensive period of time or not. Obviously strata can be laid down much more rapidly - as any proponent of the Biblical flood would support.
grmorton said:
This is all confused. You talk about uranium and then cite an article on C14 as your source. That won't work.
Please pardon my carelessness. I did mention in parenthesis that there were no refutations found at talkorigins. I neglected to mention, in context, that the information thereafter was the closest thing to it that I could find. I thought it would be obvious, but was mistaken.
grmorton said:
First off, your assumption that this is 'unsullied coal' is flat false.
Once again, you seem to take each quote to the extreme here. To have a 5-10% ash content does not indicate one way or the other that your point is valid. To be more useful, a comparison to other coal deposits would have to be offered to demonstrate that the ash content was normal, given the assumption of a vast period of time for formation. I would not expect the formation to be 100% pure under any circumstance - especially in the event of a catastrophic flood as a mechanism for formation.
 
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grmorton

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California Tim said:
I believe the issue at hand is whether or not the strata envoping the Polystrate Fossils in question was considered to have been formed over an extensive period of time or not. Obviously strata can be laid down much more rapidly - as any proponent of the Biblical flood would support.

But the fact that the tree trunk and not the entire tree is preserved is actually evidence that there was NO global flood. The global flood would deposit 2-4 feet per hour of sediment. This is based upon the thicknesses of the sediment we observe and assuming that it was deposited in one year. a moderate sediment thickness of 15,000 feet requires approximately 2 feet per hour of sediment. Given a 20 foot tall tree, it wouldn't rot in that time so it would take only 10 hours to be covered. Where are the entire trees preserved, California? We don't see them yet if there was a global flood we should see some!




Please pardon my carelessness. I did mention in parenthesis that there were no refutations found at talkorigins. I neglected to mention, in context, that the information thereafter was the closest thing to it that I could find. I thought it would be obvious, but was mistaken.

But it is absolutely silly to ask a question about foxes and then cite an article about pottery. What did you think you would accomplish with that?


Once again, you seem to take each quote to the extreme here. To have a 5-10% ash content does not indicate one way or the other that your point is valid. To be more useful, a comparison to other coal deposits would have to be offered to demonstrate that the ash content was normal, given the assumption of a vast period of time for formation. I would not expect the formation to be 100% pure under any circumstance - especially in the event of a catastrophic flood as a mechanism for formation.

If you are going to try to do science, then you need precision. If you say unsullied, then define it or expect others to use their definition. You quoted an article which said " "These coal seams run remarkably thick and unsullied by other material. Usually, unwanted sediments, such as clay, washes over a deposit before coal seams can get very thick.(Earth Magazine, May 1993) " It was obviously wrong. To now say I misunderstood what you were saying, when you quoted this passage is frankly, not believable.
 
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Vance

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But, Tim, I have gone over many of the bases for my figurative reading from within the text in other discussions, but you act as if I am bringing this point up for the first time. I can go through them again, if you like, but I am not sure if you are asking for additional points, or just a restatement of those already given.

Also, while I came to the conclusion of a figurative reading before hearing the scientific evidence regarding the age of the earth and evolution, I definitly HAD read Augustine as well as most of the other Church Fathers and great theologians throughout history. When attending a Christian school, you read all of these texts from the very beginning, in addition to numerous classes on the NT and OT. So, while I was being taught in my church and even at my school a fundamentalist perspective, and believed that perspective while still young, I still was very aware that many great Christian Men of God believed that not all Scripture should be read that way. So, Augustine and the rest did, indeed, have an influence in that I knew that this was an alternate approach believed by Godly men. So, when I began to be puzzled by the inconsistencies between many of the various texts, when read literally, and completely unimpressed with the "workarounds" given by the literalists, this well-trod alternative immediately presented itself as a possibility. Then, as I got a bit more sophisticated in my discernment of literary styles, it simply became more and more obvious to me that structure and styles of the various texts making up the first chapters of Genesis had styles that lent themselves strongly to a non-historical style. This added to the fact that non-literal reading was simply a much more plausible explanation for the factual and chronological inconsistencies than the improbable workarounds I had been fed, and I became convinced that a non-literal reading, a figurative, symbolic and typological reading was almost assuredly what was intended. The fact that it ultimately had no negative effect whatsoever on Christian theology was, obviously, another absolute requirement that was easily met.

The knowledge that many, many other Christians throughout history also viewed Genesis this way did not create the choice of interpretation, but I freely admit that it gave me confidence that I was on the right track. The ultimate confidence, of course, came from the Holy Spirit, since I had a deep and abiding peace about this approach to Genesis.

Then, when I began to study ancient history, including ancient literature and how the ancients viewed and wrote about their past, this simply heaped additional evidence that I was reading it correctly.

The oddest thing about this spiritual and intellectual maturing process was that, even after coming to that point, I was STILL a YEC in the sense that this is what I had been taught and believed. In fact, I had been so indoctrinated that evolution was evil and atheistic, and that an old earth was just an accomodation to that atheistic naturalism, that even when I was reading Genesis figuratively, I was still assuming a YEC creation. One reason was that I had been told that all the evidence really pointed to a young earth, and that evolution had no real support from the evidence. I just accepted that because I had not done any independent research and had not attended a school which taught otherwise.

Once I did review the evidence more objectively (ie, not just from YEC sources), it was a revelation. It was not even a close call, the evidence was overwhelmingly in favor of an old earth (at which point I became an OEC), then I dug into the pros and cons of evolutionary development, and saw that it really was the best explanation for the development of species. And, since I already read Genesis figuratively, this was not a challenge to my interpretation of Scripture at all.

So, that's the story of at least this TE. Since you asked.
 
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artybloke

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walking with christ said:
What you're saying makes sense to me but what about the 7 days part? The bible makes it quite clear that it actually means 7 days well it looks that way to me how does that fit with evolution(I am curious)

Although this has been answered well by others, I'd just like to add something.

I once went to an interesting meeting where someone talked of the "numerological" meaning of Genesis 1. There are, I think, 7 days of creation, 10 speech-acts ("and God saids") and, possibly, 3 distinct phases of creation. This was all a long time ago, so I'm probably remembering it all wrong, but apparently all these numbers had symbolic meaning in early Judaism, and it's possible that they were written in that manner to get that meaning across.

Also, of course, there's the aetiological (teaching) purpose of the priestly writers saying to the Jews, this is why we hold Sabbath.
 
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TwinCrier

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walking with christ said:
hmm... thinking about it the TE view does make alot of sense. I always like the analogy from the film mothman: God trying to explain the universe,creation and death to humans is like one of us trying to explain how the world works to a cockroach. So you must resort to simple and understandable descriptions(well simple by Gods standards) so that we humans can understand.
Funny how we are able to figure out with our vast knowledge something that God wasn't capable of explaining to us.
 
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Vance

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Or maybe that God did not believe it necessary to explain to us in detail, since the WHEN and HOW are not really all that important, compared to the WHO and WHY?

Or maybe that God knew not all generations would equally be able to understand, but which would eventually unfold over time, so He chose to write it in general, figurative language that works equally well for all.
 
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The thinker

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Vance said:
Or maybe that God did not believe it necessary to explain to us in detail, since the WHEN and HOW are not really all that important, compared to the WHO and WHY?

Or maybe that God knew not all generations would equally be able to understand, but which would eventually unfold over time, so He chose to write it in general, figurative language that works equally well for all.

I agree with this idea especially about the WHO and WHY is more important;)

Vance said:
Or maybe this is all speculation and God actually did it like it says in the bible.


But... this could also be very true:scratch:
 
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TwinCrier

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walking with christ said:
I agree with this idea especially about the WHO and WHY is more important;)



But... this could also be very true:scratch:
Do you ever get saddle sores riding the fence so much? ^_^ j/k

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:7-9
 
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The thinker

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TwinCrier said:
Do you ever get saddle sores riding the fence so much? ^_^ j/k

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:7-9

Yea, it is a wee bit sore:p

YEC and TE both are convincing in different ways but I think at the moment TE seems to be more convincing(at the moment anyway:) ) because I have always been a bit of a scientist, there is scientific proof for evolution and I have now realised(thanks to you lot) that it really isn't against the bible if you look at it the right way.

But I am still open to debate, I am more interested than anything else in finding out which one is right(you've gotta admit: how life and the univerese came into being is quite an interesting subject) but finding out isn't going to completly change my life or relationship with God so I am not that bothered;)
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
....So, that's the story of at least this TE. Since you asked.
I must say your answer was concise, yet I am left with a burning question since your path to figurative interpretation was almost entirely inspired by extra-Biblical sources including otehr Godly men. Actually I have two residual questions that are closely related and by answering one you may be answering the other in part.

First, you mentioned some "inconsistencies between many of the various texts, when read literally". Could you share some of those more troubling examples of such? and:

Second, would you now be confident in declaring that a figurative reading of Genesis presents no inconsistencies with any other scripture?
 
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Vance

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First, the main problem with inconsistency is that there are two different creation accounts, with very different chronologies, as has been discussed in detail on this forum. We also have the Cain problems. The desire to make these conform to historical literalness has resulted in many work-arounds. I have heard them all, and found none of them convincing. In short, they could only be thought to be the best explanation by those who were already convinced that a literal reading was absolutely required. Since I believe that the stories are God's Holy Scripture, and thus can not be incorrect, I find the most sensible explanation for all of these stories being correct is that they were simply not meant to be read as literal history.

This issue, and the stylistic literary issues are based solely within the text itself and not reliant on any outside sources. These alone, without any other input, would have been sufficient to cause me to reach the conclusion I did. And this should not be surprising, because it has been sufficient to cause Christians throughout history, long before the modern era, to reach the same conclusion.

As for your second question, yes, I feel that a figurative reading of the early chapters of Genesis is not inconsistent with the proper reading of any other Scripture. God's message is true throughout Scripture, regardless of the form it takes. Again, I have prayerfully and studiously considered the relation of such a reading with the rest of Scripture and have found that the process of seeing how they work together causes DRAMATICALLY less of a problem than the internal inconsistencies created by a literal-historical reading.

Again, this should not be a huge surprise, considering how many denominations of Christianity endorse such a reading. Sometimes, Tim, you act as if the figurative reading was something unusual, marginal or newfangled. As if you hadn't come across it before, or were not aware that it is a fairly common approach within the Body of Christ.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier said:
Or maybe this is all speculation and God actually did it like it says in the bible. I know, that was never an option worth consideration.

But this is begging the question of what "it says in the Bible". What I think it says in the Bible is very different than what you think it says in the Bible. So, I DO think God created just as He said in the Bible, which says nothing at all about the details of the WHEN or HOW, since it is figurative language.

Where YEC's start their error, IMO, is in their belief that we should begin our analysis with an assumption of literal history and then only come off of that when compelled to do so. I don't see why this should be the case.
 
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California Tim

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grmorton said:
But the fact that the tree trunk and not the entire tree is preserved is actually evidence that there was NO global flood. The global flood would deposit 2-4 feet per hour of sediment. This is based upon the thicknesses of the sediment we observe and assuming that it was deposited in one year. a moderate sediment thickness of 15,000 feet requires approximately 2 feet per hour of sediment. Given a 20 foot tall tree, it wouldn't rot in that time so it would take only 10 hours to be covered. Where are the entire trees preserved, California? We don't see them yet if there was a global flood we should see some!
As far as the time it takes to settle an enormous amount of sediment, I am not convinced there is a time constraint as profound as you suggest above. With an enormous amount of upheaval and sediment load in the water, it would take very little time for the heavier material to settle, while the lighter silt took more time.

Let's reduce the debate to this one issue for the moment. If we took a small sample of each of several consecutive strata layers in a bottle of water and shook it up, upon settling, would the layers return to the original sequence? If they did, the significance of this could be profound because the order of the strata layers might very well be defined by atomic weight rather than periods of time.
 
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California Tim

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walking with christ said:
They would obviously settle in layers of weight, if somethings older it doesn't mean its heavier :)
To clarify the issue, it is my understanding that present day dating theories are a combination of multiple yet rather subjective methods, one of which includes the assumption that the lower (deeper) the strata layer, the older it is. That is how fossils are often dated for example. The layer with the fossil is assumed to be "X" million years old thus the fossil is the same age. The layer above is assumed younger, the one above that even younger yet - and so on. What I am suggesting, is that it is yet possible that the layers were laid down at relatively the same time, by the same mechanism : namely the flood, with the heavier material settling first and the lighter material last.

So while many well-meaning evolutionists confidently declare there is no evidence for a world-wide flood, the fact is they may very well be walking on it daily.
 
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Vance

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Tim, the problem is that we DON'T have just heavier stuff lower down and lighter stuff near the top.

Also, keep in mind that this concept of older layers being deeper layers has been shown to be the case over and over again by various dating techniques of the materials in the layer. So, not only is it a logical presumption, it is one that has consistently held true when testing could confirm or deny it. It would be a major coincidence if the materials which are laid down lower also happen to test older, often in very predictable manners. For example, if there were two locations a few miles apart, and one showed a volcanic layer (which is one they can date) set in a particular sequence, they often find that same sequence in the location a few miles away. When they test the volcanic layer in both locations, they come out to the same age. If those same sequences have yet an earlier volcanic layer lower down (again, all laid in the same sequence of layers), that lower level volcanic layers will also test at the same age.

The best explanation for this is that they were laid down over time and that the dating is correct. The only people who don't accept this are those who have a preconcieved requirement that the earth can not be old. You really should check out the numerous threads on these topics in the C&E forum. Glenn knows his stuff, though, and should be able to answer the questions.
 
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California Tim

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Vance said:
The only people who don't accept this are those who have a preconcieved requirement that the earth can not be old.
I cannot help but smile every time I see this. You really think that old earthers are immune from preconceptions? It is inevitable that every argument directs us down the same path, that somehow YEC'ist are ignorant, unlearned and anti-science. Yet the unadultered truth is, that we interpret the physical evidence with a similar motivation you apply in interpretation of the Genesis account.
 
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Vance

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No, Tim, there is a huge difference. YEC's start with a presumption from which they will not budge, no matter what the evidence says. This is not like ANY scientist, nor like my approach to Genesis. I never said that any process was free of bias and preconceptions. But what happens in scientific community is that such biases and preconceptions can not mandate conclusions when the evidence as a whole does not fit the preconceptions. Not to mention the fact that not everyone in the scientific community has the same preconceptions or motivations. That is why it works, and how it is the best method to discover how the natural world works.

Do you not find it odd that the only people who believe that there is evidence for a young earth are those who not only already believe that the earth is young, but absolutely insist that it be the case, and have already decided that any evidence to the contrary must be false?
 
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