Theistic evolution, the flood and the nephillim

[grl4christ17]

[ok listen, jesus is real if not explain to me how you got on the earth? and why are you on cf if you don't beleive the alfah, the omega, the beginning and the end-jesus christ the sun of man. well thats all i wanted to tell you

 

[grl4christ17]

jesus is real and if your having doubts pm me because i've been through the same even though my parents got me saved @ the age of 5.

 

[Tinker Grey]

As for the last point, not to mention "fear of the Lord".

Too bad you don't have a reputation icon, since I appreciate the post.

Thank you for the kind words. That's reputation enough for me.

 

[shernren]

Yes, I know.

And as you know, I am cavalier, if not contemptuous, of observable reality.

I kind of see a little more clearly your view of the supernatural, that it must be backed by particular evidence of the particular event. That makes the resurrection a different category than the six days. That would give you the luxury of moving the goal posts every time you have a problem (as I define the problem to fit my defense of the opposing end zone). That is to say, it would not be enough for the great magician, by causing an elephant to disappear, to prove himself capable of pulling six rabbits in a row out of the hat. He must also have particular proof of each rabbit

I just don't see how a view of the supernatural should require naturalistic proof in all cases in which the power operates.

Why shouldn't it? I'm not talking about mechanism here, I'm talking about the sheer effect of the miracle. A miracle can be considered as a supernatural alteration of reality; but any alteration of reality, whether natural or supernatural, must leave some trace. If a supposed alteration of reality left no trace whatsoever then what is the point of saying that it happened at all? One would then be saying something that is pointless to say, like "It's raining air".

 

[busterdog]

Why shouldn't it? I'm not talking about mechanism here, I'm talking about the sheer effect of the miracle. A miracle can be considered as a supernatural alteration of reality; but any alteration of reality, whether natural or supernatural, must leave some trace. If a supposed alteration of reality left no trace whatsoever then what is the point of saying that it happened at all? One would then be saying something that is pointless to say, like "It's raining air".

I think we are having this conversation in the thread started by Graham.

This is the equation the Bible suggests:

185 thousand Assyrians suggests defeat, but ends in victory

Leprosy suggests death, but ends in clean-ness.

The dead Lazarus suggests worms, but up he stands.

The raging sea suggests lots of wet disciples, but the storm is rebuked.

Now you have _________________, suggests ____________

Maybe cancer, suggests death

Gog/Magog suggests a kosher meal for Russia

Your observations for the first five are completely collateral to the results in the last two. The calm sea tells you nothing about cancer or Gog/Magog, since the sea is not an issue there. Leprosy is not the same a cancer.

The only common pattern in the first five that leads to a conclusion in the final two is the Word, which is again, opposed to the observed conditions indicative of defeat and death.

 

[gluadys]

I think we are having this conversation in the thread started by Graham.

This is the equation the Bible suggests:

185 thousand Assyrians suggests defeat, but ends in victory

Leprosy suggests death, but ends in clean-ness.

The dead Lazarus suggests worms, but up he stands.

The raging sea suggests lots of wet disciples, but the storm is rebuked.

Now you have _________________, suggests ____________

Maybe cancer, suggests death

Gog/Magog suggests a kosher meal for Russia

Your observations for the first five are completely collateral to the results in the last two. The calm sea tells you nothing about cancer or Gog/Magog, since the sea is not an issue there. Leprosy is not the same a cancer.

The only common pattern in the first five that leads to a conclusion in the final two is the Word, which is again, opposed to the observed conditions indicative of defeat and death.

I think you are turning shernren's point upside down. He did not ask about the situation before the miracle occurred, but the physical effect in the real world of the occurrence of the miracle.

Yes, 185 thousand of Assyrians suggests defeat for Hezekiah---until God's angel walked through the Assyrian camp. The consequence of the miracle was victory for Jerusalem, and that was a visible physical effect.

The visible, physical effect of Jesus' touch was that the leper was cleansed. The visible, physical effect of his voice is that Lazarus is raised and the storm is calmed.

"Effect" after all, refers to what is observed as a consequence of the miracle happening, not to the scenario that precedes the miracle.

So it is relevant to ask, what is the visible, physical effect of a global flood? Where do we observe this effect?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thank you for explaining, gluadys. I usually agree with shernren, but this time I was missing what he was getting at.

 

[thenewageriseth]

On...angels can manifest into flesh, all right....On TV
and in books, and stories...

they may appear opaque-but still are spirits, right?
Meaning there is no way that an angel could have copulated with a human being...sounds almost impossible

I wrote about that in a story...but only because...it's an angel-related fictional novel and it's fiction

 

[busterdog]

I think you are turning shernren's point upside down. He did not ask about the situation before the miracle occurred, but the physical effect in the real world of the occurrence of the miracle.

Yes, 185 thousand of Assyrians suggests defeat for Hezekiah---until God's angel walked through the Assyrian camp. The consequence of the miracle was victory for Jerusalem, and that was a visible physical effect.

The visible, physical effect of Jesus' touch was that the leper was cleansed. The visible, physical effect of his voice is that Lazarus is raised and the storm is calmed.

"Effect" after all, refers to what is observed as a consequence of the miracle happening, not to the scenario that precedes the miracle.

So it is relevant to ask, what is the visible, physical effect of a global flood? Where do we observe this effect?

"Turning upside down" is probably a good way to put it.

I am trying to argue that the essential perspective is not the one he is adopting. The miracle that dealt with 185K Assyrians is no longer relevant to us in terms of what to do about Assyrians, or even battle, for the most part. (Israel apparently is in a different position, however.)

I think the Bible asks us to address parallel problems that have compeletly different circumstances and to do it on the basis of the only unifying theme: God is faithful and has promised to care for us.

Science is capable of addressing the particular circumstances. It can analyze how the Assyrians were defeated and how many actually perished. However, does not help us with the unique circumstances we now find our selves in.

That crunch that we may face concerns issues of health, finances, etc. I think even the academic, scientific problems are essential the same types of problems, with the same knowledge problems. I have tried to argue that the very nature of scientific inquiry, which requires string theory to explain was is completely beyond us, is acknowledging that every particular in existence represents a huge knowledge problem, at best represented by a fictional "string".

Where we apparently differ is that my argument is that the scientific question of what happened in Gen. 1 and Gen. 6 are not different processes from how we deal with the emercencies of life when we don't know what to do.

It is only your evidence that changes the problem. The evidence suggested 185K soldiers that would be all but impossible to defeat. In my view of things like Hezekiah and the Assyrians, the evidence was not very helpful in resolving the problem.

 

[shernren]

I'll be answering this over at the Graham thread.

EDIT: answered: http://www.christianforums.com/t3876541-the-6000-year-earth.html&page=42#post29461516