Theistic evolution, the flood and the nephillim

[Starforsaken]

I am a creationist (or was), but after taking a semester of geology and archeology in college I dont know what I believe; if anything Id say theistic evolution. But one of the major things that is really hurting me right now is the whole flood/nephillim thing. When I was convinced the earth was only 6000 years old, the world was globally flooded, adam and eve did exist, noah did exist; this problem did not arise.

But during the course of the semester I have seen sufficient evidence (i think) that shows me the earth is old and that a global flood could not have occured. For others out there who share this view, how do you deal with the idea of the nephillim, the watchers. Matthew clearly states that these angellic/demonic beings mated with humans, and part of the reason "the world" was flooded was to eradicate this bastardization. If there was no flood was there also no nephillim? Are people not said to have lived hundreds of years back then? I forget the kings name but was he not said to have been 13 feet tall, goliathe also incredibly tall?

Anyway, hope this came out sounding coherent, any responses, refutations are welcome.

 

[busterdog]

I am a creationist (or was), but after taking a semester of geology and archeology in college I dont know what I believe; if anything Id say theistic evolution. But one of the major things that is really hurting me right now is the whole flood/nephillim thing. When I was convinced the earth was only 6000 years old, the world was globally flooded, adam and eve did exist, noah did exist; this problem did not arise.

But during the course of the semester I have seen sufficient evidence (i think) that shows me the earth is old and that a global flood could not have occured. For others out there who share this view, how do you deal with the idea of the nephillim, the watchers. Matthew clearly states that these angellic/demonic beings mated with humans, and part of the reason "the world" was flooded was to eradicate this bastardization. If there was no flood was there also no nephillim? Are people not said to have lived hundreds of years back then? I forget the kings name but was he not said to have been 13 feet tall, goliathe also incredibly tall?

Anyway, hope this came out sounding coherent, any responses, refutations are welcome.

King Og of Bashan. Bashan is to the North and a traditional location for the occult in Israel.

Part of the problem with the non-YEC is there appears to be no line between metaphor and non-metaphor. This seems to be part of your issue with the Nephilim. If we confine our view to Genesis, what about -- the destruction of Sodom? the conception of Isaac? Jacob's wrestling with the angel? the dreams of Joseph? what about the fall as a reason for the curse of the ground or even the pain of childbirth? what about the great age to which the patriarch's lived? what about monogamy? Did Enoch just die, or did he really walk with God?

The end of things raises similar questions. Is there any solution for the middle east and the world but a King who is God with a rod of iron sitting in Jerusalem? The only other solution is environmental and nuclear annihilation and starting over again.

Lots of the foregoing could be put into to various interpretations to make them more less rational events with a supernatural/metaphorical gloss. But where do you stop? With the resurrection? Many did not stop there.

I don't think your job here is to reject what you are being taught, necessarily. But, realize that there is a very significant tension here. Common sense and conventional will not make consistency out of the Bible once you start interpreting the Word to fit what you see. The problem you see now will always nag you. Good for your for seeing the contradiction. Read Exodus. That is about the difference between what is seen and who God is for those who seek Him.

You job is to learn at school, but also to hide the WOrd in your heart. If you have doubts about whether one view should prevail over the other, maybe you should ask yourself whether you are not getting enough of one side of this rather tense and conflicted struggle for how to see things. I would counsel you that you have every freedom to study science. But, as in Isaiah, the Word does not return void to the Lord. Fill yourself with it and desire ears to hear.

I would strongly suggest you keep a part of your self free for the Lord to move and fill you with His interpretation. The older I get, the more I get used to living in two worlds and thinking in two or three different frames of reference. I think that is ok. It is also ok not to be a zealot for one view or the other. It is good to have a place where what the world thinks and what you think are not that important, but where the Lord can surprise you. To know that there is nothing beyond His purposes, nothing He can't do (except lie), that is most important.

My argument as a YEC would be to accept YEC. But, more important really is to feed on the WOrd, even if you have the wrong interpretation, take it in and give God permission to change how you see it. Maybe that leads to to TE. Whatever.

Most importantly, the Lord will be there. He promises to be there for you.

 

[artybloke]

Matthew clearly states that these angellic/demonic beings mated with humans, and part of the reason "the world" was flooded was to eradicate this bastardization.

Where?

 

[busterdog]

Where?

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Same angels:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Thus, the same issue. No apparent metaphor here.

Similar, indirect reference:

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 

[shernren]

If you look at where the Bible describes God's motivation for the Flood:

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
(Genesis 6:5-6 NIV)

You see that God principally wanted to punish man's wickedness, not the wickedness of whatever half-breed offspring angels had with man. In fact, Jesus compares the end-times to the time of Noah when people went about drinking and doing business oblivious of God's righteousness or impending doom. That doesn't sound like a community of wannabe superheroes (which your nephilim, "mighty men of old", would well be), that sounds more like your average everyday person except that s/he doesn't know God and couldn't care less, hence grieving God.

Don't be afraid of uncertainty. It's alright to say about some things that you just don't know. What's important is that your view of the Bible and the world must make sense with what you already know, whether from divine revelation or the physical universe.

 

[Tinker Grey]

As a general rule, Christian TEs take everything up through Noah to be mythology. There are notable exceptions. I believe shernren is one -- he could discuss at length, I imagine, how he sychronizes the ideas. My wife is another, but she isn't interested in message boards.

I take a more radical view than most TEs, myself.

However, I believe that the power of the stories is in there meanings. That is, whether they happened or not they are True. These stories are told so that we can gain a better understanding of God's relationship to man -- or God's relationship to you.

Many things have happened in history that no one ever wrote down. The fact that these things happened are forever lost to us. So, even if Adam and Eve were real, we must ask why it is important that we know of them.

I believe the answer that a literalist would give is the same that a non-literalist gives -- to know God, to know our relationship to him.

The meaning in any story (Biblical or not) is not in its historicity, but rather in what we derive from it.

HTH

 

[busterdog]

However, I believe that the power of the stories is in there meanings. That is, whether they happened or not they are True. These stories are told so that we can gain a better understanding of God's relationship to man -- or God's relationship to you.

* * *

The meaning in any story (Biblical or not) is not in its historicity, but rather in what we derive from it.

HTH

There is a lot of truth there that is well said.

Part of that "relationship" has to do with things like 1. my body and what it will be 10,000 years from now; and 2. what is the answer to the opression of the people of Israel?

I am getting close to stating a rhetorical question, but I really want to ask a real question. What do you think about that? What is the tool you use that gets those questions answered?

 

[busterdog]

That doesn't sound like a community of wannabe superheroes (which your nephilim, "mighty men of old", would well be), that sounds more like your average everyday person except that s/he doesn't know God and couldn't care less, hence grieving God.

There is always an element of the occult kept largely in shadow. There would appear to be a genetic issue that can be implied, but suffice it to say that there is a very considerable occult spiritual pollution explicit in the Bible. It would appear to be much more than just bad behavior. In fact, you will see the associations now between occult practice and all sorts of other sins. It is a bit mysterious, but it does seem to involve fallen angels and many unnameable non-human influence, which may be all we need to know, and all would be part and parcel of this wickendess.

 

[Tinker Grey]

There is a lot of truth there that is well said.

Part of that "relationship" has to do with things like 1. my body and what it will be 10,000 years from now; and 2. what is the answer to the opression of the people of Israel?

I am getting close to stating a rhetorical question, but I really want to ask a real question. What do you think about that? What is the tool you use that gets those questions answered?

Let me start with this disclaimer: I'm spit-ballin' here.

I may not be the best person to attempt an answer to these questions. WRT #1, my perception of what God intends for us now is vastly more important than what he intends for us later. WRT #2, I'm not sure what Israel and God's purposes for Israel have to do with God's purposes for me.

WRT #1, I don't attempt to understand what is to be. I accept that Paul and John wrote according to their understanding. What the Gospel writers report of Jesus, I believe that Jesus primarily promises a place -- and doesn't promise much more than this.

For example, I don't get hung up on Paul's apparent fascination with and insistence on a physical ressurection for us. It may be, it may not be. The primary thing I derive from Jesus, Paul, and John on this subject is that God is trustworthy and has made provision. All of end-times stuff says one thing coherently -- that God wins, and therefore, we win. These scriptures exhort me to trust God. I don't care if I am in physical form or not (though, I might trust that Paul was speaking through the Spirit).

WRT #2, again my attitude is one of trusting God. Jesus' parables, IMHO, don't give a clear picture of what will happen to Israel. They do show that in some sense they are part of the equation. In the sense that the Holy Spirit speaks through varioius scriptures saying that through them all the nations will be blessed and that whoever blesses them will be blessed and whoso curses them will be cursed, then I guard my attitude about Israel and respect who they are. But, again, for me, it is in God's hands. I am not particularly interested in how it will work out -- tho' I do my part in praying for the peace of Jerusalem, etc.

So, what AM I interested in? (Rhetorical! ) For me, all of scripture -- from Adam and Eve on -- is about God's loving pursuit of us, of me, of you. As practical life activities, I am interested in fostering within myself (and in others as a part of ministry) an attitude that allows God to transform me in the image of his Son. As a matter of practice, HOW am I loving my neighbor? If pursuit of the truth of certain subject matter hinders my ability to love, then I need to let it go.

The question of tools is harder. Some of that is temperament. IOW, because of my bent, I am tempted to answer, "through intellect." But we are all different.

The commonality is in the Holy Spirit. Pardon me if I border on heresy here, but if the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me then the Bible is useless as a tool for my transformation. If, OTOH, the Holy Spirit is guiding me, then all things become tools for my transformation.

I summary, I am not sure I can answer the specific questions answered in this context, because for me answering them doesn't pertain to my growth -- for now, at any rate. In terms of generality, our primary tool is openess to the Holy Spirit whom we expect may use any tool to transform us.

HTH

 

[busterdog]

So, what AM I interested in? (Rhetorical! )

Well, I am still mulling what you said, so it is probably even less rhetorical than I anticiated!

Two quick comments: I think our hope is for a physical redemption. Israel's problem is a physical problem that seems to have no answer but a miraculous, earthly intervention by God as King. Maybe that is beyond our imagination at this point. But, once we start talking about the rubber hitting the road -- ie, Jesus being HERE in some shape or form -- the hermeneutics just so much more complicated for us. But that does seem to be the only viable scenario -- Jesus here, dealing with all of it, miraculously.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I'm glad it was interesting.

God bless.

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

Here are some good creation website to help you in search for truth.

www.nwcreation.net

www.drdino.com

They all have free downloadable videos for you to watch and learn from.

God bless.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Here are some good creation website to help you in search for truth.

www.nwcreation.net

www.drdino.com

They all have free downloadable videos for you to watch and learn from.

God bless.

at least with Hovind we have proof* that he is a cheat and a thief as well as a liar.

*beyond reasonable doubt.
http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061103/NEWS01/611030338/1006

Pensacola evangelist and tax protester Kent Hovind winked at his wife and gave her a reassuring smile as he was led away to jail.

Jo Hovind clutched the necktie he had been wearing. She kept her eyes on her husband until he was out of sight.

A 12-person jury deliberated for 2½ hours on Thursday before finding the couple guilty of all counts in their tax-fraud case.

Kent Hovind, founder of Creation Science Evangelism and Dinosaur Adventure Land in Pensacola, was found guilty of 58 counts, including failure to pay $845,000 in employee-related taxes. He faces a maximum of 288 years in prison.

it is just too bad that you can't be prosecuted for lying about scientific things. But God does care about the truth.

Colossians 3:8-11
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

I didn't know that they sent him to prison. I do pray that God helps him. But he did win many people to Christ.

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

He was my favorite evangelist to fight against evolution. I do hate what he did, but we all pay taxes, those who work. Even Jesus said give to Ceaser what is his and to God his- paraphrase. I do pray that God help him and spare his soul.

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

And I don't think that he was lying for the discussion of scientific things. I agree with most of the things in his seminars from a scientific/Biblical view.

 

[Deamiter]

Hovind also drove many from Christ including two of my high school friends who grew up watching his crap and rejected Christ when their families told them they had to take the Bible HIS way or they weren't Christian.

To the OP, as others have said, don't be afraid of uncertainty. It's very appealing to believe that we CAN know exactly what God intended in every verse of the Bible, but the fact is that God chose to write it through humans using their understanding of the universe and of theology.

If you want a book that was perfectly dictated by God, you'll have to look outside of Christianity. The Qu'ran claims to have been dictated by an angel and thus should be MUCH closer to God. (/sarcasm)

Whatever you do and wherever you understanding ends up, don't stop searching for truth. As everybody posting in this forum, I STRONGLY believe it is in Christ, but I will never stop searching for a better understanding. If I EVER find what I believe to be a better truth (whatever that means) than Christianity, I will no longer be a Christian. However, I don't think I will ever stop finding truth in the Bible.

The Bible is written by people who followed and were inspired by God. It's worth a great deal of study -- even by non-Christians like Ghandi who found truth (though not Christ) in the book, yet rejected the religion due to the actions of its followers.

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

Still Dr. Hovind stuck with his belief in God's word. After all, Carl Marx was the one who said that we needed a Income Tax and a Central Bank. That guy was dumb and never worked a day in his life. He even let his 2 youngest children starve to death.

 

[Deamiter]

And I don't think that he was lying for the discussion of scientific things. I agree with most of the things in his seminars from a scientific/Biblical view.

You've never studied under a scientist in any of these areas have you? He is so disingenuous and inaccurate about basic scientific knowledge that even creationist sites have warned readers to be wary of his "science."

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, but don't pretend for a second that your agreeing with most of what he says has anything to do with whether they're actually representative of what scientists have discovered about the universe!

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

I never thought of his seminars as crap. I never strayed from Christ. I got closer to Christ through his ministry and other Creation websites. Most of the scriptures he interprets do agree with my own personal studies and the other Bible studies from other Creationists.