Theistic Evolution makes Judgment and Sin feel distant and less real

Jonathan Walkerin

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You know that the entire Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16-17), right? People didn't just thought this up. The Bible is entirely inspired by God, men only wrote it down.

You don’t think there is anything problematical saying the Bible is entirely inspired by God because it says so in the Bible ?

Would you believe any other holy book whose advocates said their version of god or gods is true because their holy books said so ?

You would think that if it was entirely inspired it would be perfect and written down fast instead of having mistakes while being written over 14 centuries with doubtless lots of church politics involved what went it to final version and what was left out.

The message is the important thing, not the literalism.
 
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Jacob Black

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You don’t think there is anything problematical saying the Bible is entirely inspired by God because it says so in the Bible ?

Would you believe any other holy book whose advocates said their version of god or gods is true because their holy books said so ?

You would think that if it was entirely inspired it would be perfect and written down fast instead of having mistakes while being written over 14 centuries with doubtless lots of church politics involved what went it to final version and what was left out.

The message is the important thing, not the literalism.

How can I know if the message of the Bible is true if it's full of flaws? If that is so then I can also not trust the Gospels.
 
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hedrick

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So I'm assuming you believe Jesus actually said this:

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


- John 5:46-47

The modern ""scientific"" consensus is that Moses probably didn't even exist, much less authored the Pentateuch.
No, I'm not convinced this is a direct quote. I'm sure you're aware of critical assessments of the Gospels.

Historians are pretty convinced that Exodus as a whole isn't historical. That doesn't mean that Moses didn't exist. I think there's a good chance that he did, and that the tradition associating him with a Law has some basis. If you look at Jesus' references to Moses in the Synoptics, you'll see that they refer to his commandments, and do not portray him as the author of the Pentateuch.
 
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hedrick

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How can I know if the message of the Bible is true if it's full of flaws? If that is so then I can also not trust the Gospels.
You can't trust them as inerrant. You can trust them as early witnesses. They've been analyzed pretty completely by many people. Pretty much everyone -- even non-Christians -- thinks that the Synoptics give us a reasonable, though not perfect, view of Jesus' life and teachings.

But your argument not only isn't valid, it's dangerous. We should treat the Bible as inerrant so we can believe the Gospels? You're starting out with what you want to prove, that at least the Gospels are true.
 
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Jacob Black

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No, I'm not convinced this is a direct quote. I'm sure you're aware of critical assessments of the Gospels.

Historians are pretty convinced that Exodus as a whole isn't historical. That doesn't mean that Moses didn't exist. I think there's a good chance that he did, and that the tradition associating him with a Law has some basis. If you look at Jesus' references to Moses in the Synoptics, you'll see that they refer to his commandments, and do not portray him as the author of the Pentateuch.

>Jesus refers to the commandments given by Moses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
>Moses isn't the author of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)

Choose one.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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How can I know if the message of the Bible is true if it's full of flaws? If that is so then I can also not trust the Gospels.

It is not nuclear science. We have this google thing for the lazy researchers.

Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

Note this is only for scientific errors, but since they are there what’s your take on them ?

Did God inspire men to write those errors for reason unknown ?

If so , then indeed how could you trust that Gospels were not inspiredly written false as well ?

So if the Bible is fully inspired either God knowingly inspired false information or He made a mistake.

Neither of those options sound too probable do they ?

So what is left is human error. Which there wouldn’t be any if it was completely inspired ?

What logical conclusions can you make out of that ?
 
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Jacob Black

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It is not nuclear science. We have this google thing for the lazy researchers.

Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

Note this is only for scientific errors, but since they are there what’s your take on them ?

Did God inspire men to write those errors for reason unknown ?

If so , then indeed how could you trust that Gospels were not inspiredly written false as well ?

So if the Bible is fully inspired either God knowingly inspired false information or He made a mistake.

Neither of those options sound too probable do they ?

So what is left is human error. Which there wouldn’t be any if it was completely inspired ?

What logical conclusions can you make out of that ?

From Gotquestions.org

''1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.

2. The Bible stands or falls as a whole. If a major newspaper were routinely discovered to contain errors, it would be quickly discredited. It would make no difference to say, “All the errors are confined to page three.” For a paper to be reliable in any of its parts, it must be factual throughout. In the same way, if the Bible is inaccurate when it speaks of geology, why should its theology be trusted? It is either a trustworthy document, or it is not.

3. The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.

We believe that the God who created the universe is capable of writing a book. And the God who is perfect is capable of writing a perfect book. The issue is not simply “Does the Bible have a mistake?” but “Can God make a mistake?” If the Bible contains factual errors, then God is not omniscient and is capable of making errors Himself. If the Bible contains misinformation, then God is not truthful but is instead a liar. If the Bible contains contradictions, then God is the author of confusion. In other words, if biblical inerrancy is not true, then God is not God.

4. The Bible judges us, not vice versa. “For the word of God...judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Notice the relationship between “the heart” and “the Word.” The Word examines; the heart is being examined. To discount parts of the Word for any reason is to reverse this process. We become the examiners, and the Word must submit to our “superior insight.” Yet God says, “But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?” (Romans 9:20).

5. The Bible’s message must be taken as a whole. It is not a mixture of doctrine that we are free to select from. Many people like the verses that say God loves them, but they dislike the verses that say God will judge sinners. But we simply cannot pick and choose what we like about the Bible and throw the rest away. If the Bible is wrong about hell, for example, then who is to say it is right about heaven—or about anything else? If the Bible cannot get the details right about creation, then maybe the details about salvation cannot be trusted either. If the story of Jonah is a myth, then perhaps so is the story of Jesus. On the contrary, God has said what He has said, and the Bible presents us a full picture of who God is. “Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).

6. The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. If it is not reliable, then on what do we base our beliefs? Jesus asks for our trust, and that includes trust in what He says in His Word. John 6:67-69 is a beautiful passage. Jesus had just witnessed the departure of many who had claimed to follow Him. Then He turns to the twelve apostles and asks, “You do not want to leave too, do you?” At this, Peter speaks for the rest when he says, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” May we have the same trust in the Lord and in His words of life.

None of what we have presented here should be taken as a rejection of true scholarship. Biblical inerrancy does not mean that we are to stop using our minds or accept what the Bible says blindly. We are commanded to study the Word (2 Timothy 2:15), and those who search it out are commended (Acts 17:11). Also, we recognize that there are difficult passages in the Bible, as well as sincere disagreements over interpretation. Our goal is to approach Scripture reverently and prayerfully, and when we find something we do not understand, we pray harder, study more, and—if the answer still eludes us—humbly acknowledge our own limitations in the face of the perfect Word of God.''
 
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hedrick

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>Jesus refers to the commandments given by Moses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
>Moses isn't the author of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)

Choose one.
Huh? Moses gave commandments. The Pentateuch recorded them, along with narrative and various other laws. That doesn’t make Moses the author of the Pentateuch.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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From Gotquestions.org

Yes, great copy/paste there.

Now how about answering while thinking this through yourself ?

Let’s recap.

There are scientific errors in the Bible. This is a demonstrated fact.

If the Bible is fully inspired these errors are intentional since by definition God should not make errors.

If there are inspired scientific errors what would prevent there being other inspired non truths as well ?

If these on the other hand are purely human errors then clearly the Bible is not throughly inspired.

So thinking it through what is your own opinion on this ?
 
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Jacob Black

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Huh? Moses gave commandments. The Pentateuch recorded them, along with narrative and various other laws. That doesn’t make Moses the author of the Pentateuch.

Moses wrote the Pentateuch because Jesus (God) said so in John 5:46-47. Moses could have had someone who wrote it down for him but it's still his writings.
 
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Jacob Black

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Yes, great copy/paste there.

Now how about answering while thinking this through yourself ?

Let’s recap.

There are scientific errors in the Bible. This is a demonstrated fact.

If the Bible is fully inspired these errors are intentional since by definition God should not make errors.

If there are inspired scientific errors what would prevent there being other inspired non truths as well ?

If these on the other hand are purely human errors then clearly the Bible is not throughly inspired.

So thinking it through what is your own opinion on this ?

It is not my opinion that the Bible is divinely inspired. It just is because God says so.
 
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Jacob Black

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Yes, great copy/paste there.

Now how about answering while thinking this through yourself ?

Let’s recap.

There are scientific errors in the Bible. This is a demonstrated fact.

If the Bible is fully inspired these errors are intentional since by definition God should not make errors.

If there are inspired scientific errors what would prevent there being other inspired non truths as well ?

If these on the other hand are purely human errors then clearly the Bible is not throughly inspired.

So thinking it through what is your own opinion on this ?

Also if the Bible is full of flaws then how can you trust that Jesus really did all those miracles and rose from the dead?
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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It is not my opinion that the Bible is divinely inspired. It just is because God says so.

Also if the Bible is full of flaws then how can you trust that Jesus really did all those miracles and rose from the dead?

It looks like you are avoiding a direct answer to my previous questions.

Understandable since an answer would make the wholly inspired Bible idea look ridiculous.

Well, let’s hope it at least made you think about it.
 
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hedrick

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From Gotquestions.org
''1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.
That only works if the Bible is itself the word of God, as opposed to being a witness to God. In fact there's no reason to think that any of these passages are about the Bible.
2. The Bible stands or falls as a whole. If a major newspaper were routinely discovered to contain errors, it would be quickly discredited. It would make no difference to say, “All the errors are confined to page three.” For a paper to be reliable in any of its parts, it must be factual throughout. In the same way, if the Bible is inaccurate when it speaks of geology, why should its theology be trusted? It is either a trustworthy document, or it is not.
The Bible isn't a newspaper. It doesn't contain just things that the reporter has seen. But the more serious problem is that it's not just one book, just because it's bound in leather on your desk. The various books are by different authors at different times, and has to be assessed differently.
3. The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.
This is assuming what you're claiming to prove. God is not the author of the Bible. The Bible was written by people describing God's working with them or their people.

"God-breathed" is an overtranslation, like claiming that goodbye is religious because it was originally God be with ye. In fact the author explains what he means by inspired: it's useful for certain purposes he lists.
We believe that the God who created the universe is capable of writing a book. And the God who is perfect is capable of writing a perfect book. The issue is not simply “Does the Bible have a mistake?” but “Can God make a mistake?” If the Bible contains factual errors, then God is not omniscient and is capable of making errors Himself. If the Bible contains misinformation, then God is not truthful but is instead a liar. If the Bible contains contradictions, then God is the author of confusion. In other words, if biblical inerrancy is not true, then God is not God.
Of course God is capable of writing a perfect book. But there's no reason to think he is the author of the Bible. Indeed the scientific errors suggest that he's not.
4. The Bible judges us, not vice versa. “For the word of God...judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Notice the relationship between “the heart” and “the Word.” The Word examines; the heart is being examined. To discount parts of the Word for any reason is to reverse this process. We become the examiners, and the Word must submit to our “superior insight.” Yet God says, “But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?” (Romans 9:20).
Gpd's Word judges us.
5. The Bible’s message must be taken as a whole. It is not a mixture of doctrine that we are free to select from. Many people like the verses that say God loves them, but they dislike the verses that say God will judge sinners. But we simply cannot pick and choose what we like about the Bible and throw the rest away. If the Bible is wrong about hell, for example, then who is to say it is right about heaven—or about anything else? If the Bible cannot get the details right about creation, then maybe the details about salvation cannot be trusted either. If the story of Jonah is a myth, then perhaps so is the story of Jesus. On the contrary, God has said what He has said, and the Bible presents us a full picture of who God is. “Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).
I agree that we need to look throughout the Bible, and not just pull texts out of context. Jonah isn't a myth. It's a satire on the narrow-mindedness of some Israelites. Do you have no sense of literature?
6. The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. If it is not reliable, then on what do we base our beliefs? Jesus asks for our trust, and that includes trust in what He says in His Word. John 6:67-69 is a beautiful passage. Jesus had just witnessed the departure of many who had claimed to follow Him. Then He turns to the twelve apostles and asks, “You do not want to leave too, do you?” At this, Peter speaks for the rest when he says, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” May we have the same trust in the Lord and in His words of life.
We base our teachings on Jesus' teachings, with guidance from Paul and others. However we need to be honest about what we can and can't know from that. Most of the questions debates in CF aren't answered by Jesus, and many not by the Bible at all. In that case the Church has to make a judgement based on the general principles Jesus taught. I'm afraid too many Christians are unwilling to admit this uncertainty, and take Bible passages out of context to establish views not intended by the authors.
 
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hedrick

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You're stating things that having nothing to do with God's inerrant word. Did you know that Satan is the god (little g) of this world according to 2 Corinthians 4:4? Satan is the major influence on the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people. His influence also encompasses the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce. The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.
Paul uses "the world" to refer to things opposed to the spirit. So he's talking about those things. To say that Satan is actually god of the world contradicts the basic principles of Judaism and Christianity.
 
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Questioning Brother

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Ok. I don’t believe the creation was 6 days. I believe it took billions of years. Is this incompatible with the Bible? no. I believe that Moses (and for that matter a long list of the authors of the books) could not have had a handle on a million, much less a billion. So it was put into terms they understood: days. By the way there is much evidence that Genesis 1 was written CENTURIES after Genesis 2. Anyway, the Biblical account follows moderately well the scientific timeline. What is first? Light. I would guess that the Big Bang would have made a tremendous amount of light. The next important step (for us) is the formation of the earth, moon, and sun. Which is next in the Bible. Then the animals of the sea. Check. Then the last stages being land animals and man. As far as “the dust of the earth”, our elemental makeup is pretty close to that if the earth. The amount of time science attributes to getting from the Big Bang to Mankind, only makes God more eternal. (At least 10 billion years vs 10k). The tree? Original sin? Not an issue scientifically. Remember there can be no sin without consciousness. Predators do not sin when they kill, because they do not know better. Likewise, “Adam and Eve” may have been the first people to be truly sapient.

As for other miracles, some have scientific explanations. The plagues of Egypt for example follow a pattern that makes sense scientifically, and there have been models that show at the shallowest places in the Red Sea ( the translation of which is in question also, with some saying a smaller body of water called the Reed Sea) that a wind blowing hard from one direction long enough, I believe it was eight hours, could sufficiently dry an area enough for people to cross and remain muddy enough to slow chariots. Even the burning bush has a mundane explanation. Does this rule out God? No. God makes the wind blow, determines the seasons, and His voice is there. Even with evolution, God directs the changes. An asteroid strike here, a shifting climate there, and he produces the results he wants.
As a final note, would you set up a system that required your constant supervision for the most minor of details? No, you would set the rules (laws) that govern its operation and intervene when necessary. Is it that much of a stretch that God would operate the same way? That seems to be His model for man. He sets us up with talents and drives, then lets us do what we will with them. He then gets involved to keep us on the path he wants.
 
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Jamdoc

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Something I've been pondering lately. I'm now fairly confident that most Christians who believe in Evolution, do so because they have a problem with the idea of the supernatural in general. They tend to reject accounts of miracles in the NT (unrelated to Evolution) just as readily as they reject a Genesis worldview of earth history.

But why? I think perhaps we have a hidden motivation to "de-realize" (make the Bible more unreal) because this in turn makes ideas of accountability and God's judgment more unreal. It makes SIN feel less real... Our personal lives, our desires and agendas, get a lot more flexible the more we push the Bible into the realm of symbolic unreal-ness...

"All those stories about God wiping out people who turned away from his commandment? Ehh... that didn't really happen. It's just a moral lesson to help us live better lives..."

If our Creator God really takes judgment and accountability as seriously as he says he does.. then the party down here in the world is over, and we better get a whole lot more serious about taking up our cross and following him. I think a lot of us have one foot planted comfortably in this world, and going along with the secular world's creation story (Evolution) makes it a lot easier to maintain that lifestyle and reap the social benefits of being a "reasonable Christian" ... and not one of those kooks who actually believe all that problematic stuff in scripture about miracles and judgments and stuff.

We assure ourselves that we are just following the "evidence" of Evolution that God left for us, when in reality we are just putting on the goggles of philosophical naturalism, where everything we look at *must* be attributed to a natural process. The result is a weird contradictory blend of professing to believe in the Resurrection, while systematically cleansing all other supernatural accounts out of the Bible.


For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

- John 5:46-47

No I believe in some sort of evolution (eg not Abiogenesis, God created life, it didn't arise on its own), because I understand how genetics works. Evolution as a biological process is just applied genetics. As to what drives mutation I don't think of it as so much random chance as a naturalist or atheist would I believe God drives the process on all sides, but it is apparent that that process has happened and continues to happen. To declare that evolution does not happen is to be ignorant of reality and not understand how heredity works.

Key concept to remember.

Evolution is NOT Abiogenesis, it is NOT a naturalist world view of life arising without God. Don't let the naturalists and atheists make the word toxic to you when you don't understand what it means.

Evolution is simply change over time. It doesn't just apply to diversifying of life, but you can evolve your opinion, society evolves, technology evolves. The only thing that does NOT evolve is God, He's the same yesterday and today and forever. But everything else can and will evolve in some way, we're not in a static vacuum, we're in a dynamic ever changing universe. So what is evolution in terms of biology? Species changing through generations. Every dog breed we have is an example of microevolution (change within a species), and it exhibits the fundamental mechanism of that change: sexual reproduction, reproducing after their kind, but on a genetic level there are changes.

Another key thing to think about is the bible said they reproduced after their kind, not necessarily after their species. We can see wolves and coyotes interbreed, lions and tigers, etc. So a "kind" is not a "Canis lupus" the grey wolf, a "kind" is a Canid, a few taxa further back. In the time of Noah's ark, there was probably only 1 Canid species that survived the flood. God created all the rest from that surviving representative species I believe. You got the wolf, coyote, and many varieties of foxes from it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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God literally formed Adam out of dust, not out of a monkey. Genesis 2:7 ''And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.''

If God created us out of monkeys it would say ''And the Lord God formed man out of the apes in the trees...'' or ''And the Lord God formed apes of the dust of the ground, who in turn became man...''

And how is it you just happen to "know" what the Bible would say? Are you an expert in the art and science of Biblical Hermeneutics, brother Jacob?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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How can I know if the message of the Bible is true if it's full of flaws? If that is so then I can also not trust the Gospels.

You don't know either way, and neither do I. But like any literary representation of human thoughts about the "past," whether those thoughts were placed in scrolls or books, the Bible can have 'flaws' like the other yet STILL relate to us some amount of the lived perceptions of the authors who wrote the respective works of the Bible.

So, yeah, even IF the Bible isn't more human than any other book, it can STILL relate to its readers some representations about the God Who is real and has expressed Himself through the person of Jesus of Nazareth ...

It's not the Bible that 'needs' to be true to make Christianity true; rather, it's simply a matter of the God of Israel, through and in Jesus Christ, existing and arranging for us to come to know Him, Bible or no Bible.
 
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Cis.jd

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Something I've been pondering lately. I'm now fairly confident that most Christians who believe in Evolution, do so because they have a problem with the idea of the supernatural in general.

- John 5:46-47

No, we are just going by the facts. You have to remember that the Bible, while written under the inspiration of God none of the writers had any form of IQ boost when being led by the Holy Spirit, because the main point of the Bible was the relationship between God and man, spiritually.

Everything else such as the ecosystem, space, biology, physics etc is was never revealed to the writers.

Theistic evolution isn't having a problem with the supernatural it's just being reasonable with our beliefs and not just throwing away evidence and scientific studies shown.
 
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