Theist evidence/arguments.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Hi there,
Give me an argument or two as to why I should believe in God? Not including the sentence or one like this: "You know there is a God really."

Steve C.

P.S. Was a "Christian"/christian for many years.

Tolworth John · Sep 21, 2019

Justice, morality, equality all start disappearing when believe in God goes. Why do people believe in these things if there is no God?

2PhiloVoid · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
Hi there,
Give me an argument or two as to why I should believe in God? Not including the sentence or one like this: "You know there is a God really."

Steve C.

P.S. Was a "Christian"/christian for many years.

Because it's obvious there's something very diabolically screwy in this world, and as was said in a couple of lines of dialogue in an episode of the t.v. show, Criminal Minds, if you believe in one (the Devil), you have to believe in the Other.

Done.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Because it's obvious there's something very diabolically screwy in this world, and as was said in a couple of lines of dialogue in an episode of Criminal Minds, if you believe in one (the Devil), you have to believe in the other.

Well I don't believe in the existence of the devil. So, if I don't believe in the one, then I don't believe in the other. Seriously though, why don't you take what happens in the world as purely human or natural?

2PhiloVoid · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
Well I don't believe in the existence of the devil. So, if I don't believe in the one, then I don't believe in the other. Seriously though, why don't you take what happens in the world as purely human or natural?

What does "purely human" even mean, philosophically speaking? I find that term to be vague, even obfuscating.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Tolworth John said:
Justice, morality, equality all start disappearing when believe in God goes. Why do people believe in these things if there is no God?

Justice does sometimes disappear, if God is taken out of the equation, because the world isn't always fair. Morality doesn't disappear, it is just transformed into something different. Equality is always going to be a difficult one, as you're saying there is a God and yet people don't treat people of colour, Christians, Muslims, Homosexuals etc. equally.

In answer to your question we believe in these things because we want to live in a better world. Cue...

Sanoy · Sep 21, 2019

An argument is only as good as the premises that push it along. Anyone can deny a premise, even at great sacrifice, to avoid a conclusion. So one would have to know something about what truths you hold beforehand to provide an appropriate argument for why you should believe in God rather than not.

For example.
* Do you believe in objective moral values and duties?
* Do you believe you have intellectual faculties capable of reliably determining truths about the world?

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
What does "purely human" even mean, philosophically speaking? I find that term to be vague, even obfuscating.

I was trying to convey in the sentence in which I used the words purely human, that most screwy things happen as a consequence of human beings, not as the result of some superhuman entity, ie a "being" called Satan.

2PhiloVoid · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
I was trying to convey in the sentence in which I used the words purely human, that most screwy things happen as a consequence of human beings, not as the result of some superhuman entity, ie a "being" called Satan.

Could be. But if something walks like a demonically possessed duck, talks like a demonically possessed duck, and it quacks at us with a strange kind of quackery, we might surmise that it actually is a ...

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Sanoy said:
* Do you believe in objective moral values and duties?
* Do you believe you have intellectual faculties capable of reliably determining truths about the world?

*No I don't believe in objective moral values or objective duties. For the simple reason that I would have to believe in a God to believe this. I'm not even sure that objective morality makes sense, but you would have to tell me your definition of objective before I could state my reasons for not believing in objective morality, because, otherwise we might talk at cross purposes.

*I can determine the truth on some occasions,but not on others. It depends what data I have and whether it is adequate for my intelligence to arrive at an answer.

Tinker Grey · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
Hi there,
Give me an argument or two as to why I should believe in God? Not including the sentence or one like this: "You know there is a God really."

Steve C.

P.S. Was a "Christian"/christian for many years.

Welcome. Also "was christian for many years."

Sanoy · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
*I can determine the truth on some occasions,but not on others. It depends what data I have and whether it is adequate for my intelligence to arrive at an answer.

I can't tell from your response whether you believe you have intellectual faculties, or if they are reliable or not. Would you clarify?

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Could be. But if something walks like a demonically possessed duck, talks like a demonically possessed duck, and it quacks at us with a strange kind of quackery, we might surmise that it actually is a ...

You would have to have a reference frame for what exactly is a "demonically possessed duck". So, do you think that you have observed the demonised, not necessarily in duck form...

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
Welcome. Also "was christian for many years."

Hi Tinker Grey.

Nice to hear from a fellow Atheist.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Sanoy said:
I can't tell from your response whether you believe you have intellectual faculties, or if they are reliable or not. Would you clarify?

I have a basic level of intelligence and a little in the intellectual faculties department. They are reliable sometimes, but not others. I take it you would like to pin me down, so as to go into a scripted argument.

Sanoy · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
I have a basic level of intelligence and a little in the intellectual faculties department. They are reliable sometimes, but not others. I take it you would like to pin me down, so as to go into a scripted argument.

Yes, that is exactly right. When it comes to God all of ones chips are on the line, a confident gambler will trust in his hand, and a worried one will be cautious as you are right now. But here is the rub about my selection. If you don't have reliable intellectual faculties, you cannot reliably navigate the argument you seek, if you claim to have them, which you must to go forward, then you place everything on the table. Your chips are going to be placed on that table regardless, the "call" can come today, or at the end of your life. I understand your fear, but I count all loss as gain in the Lord.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Sanoy said:
Yes, that is exactly right. When it comes to God all of ones chips are on the line, a confident gambler will trust in his hand, and a worried one will be cautious.

My intellectual faculties are like that of each and every human, that is to say, sometimes reliable and sometimes not reliable. If you are correct on every occasion, then you have reliable intellectual faculties. If you are incorrect some of the time, then you may suffer from biases. In which case your intellectual faculties may be unreliable. So, my intellectual faculties are not fully reliable. As to whether I will understand your argument, if you let me hear it, you might find out whether I understand it. My chips are on the table.

Sanoy said:
If you don't have reliable intellectual faculties, you cannot reliably navigate the argument you seek, if you claim to have them, which you must to go forward, then you place everything on the table.

Sorry, for the reasons I have stated above, I don't have 100% reliable faculties. And, I guess you won't continue with your argument.

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Sanoy said:
I understand your fear, but I count all loss as gain in the Lord.

What fear?

Sanoy · Sep 21, 2019

anx66 said:
My intellectual faculties are like that of each and every human, that is to say, sometimes reliable and sometimes not reliable. If you are correct on every occasion, then you have reliable intellectual faculties. If you are incorrect some of the time, then you may suffer from biases. In which case your intellectual faculties may be unreliable. So, my intellectual faculties are not fully reliable. As to whether I will understand your argument, if you let me hear it, you might find out whether I understand it.

Sorry, for the reasons I have stated above, I don't have 100% reliable faculties. And, I guess you won't continue with your argument.

Reliable doesn't mean that it never fails, but that you can put your trust in it. So do you have trust in your intellectual faculties capability to discover truths about reality?

anx66 · Sep 21, 2019

Sanoy said:
Reliable doesn't mean that it never fails, but that you can put your trust in it. So do you have trust in your intellectual faculties capability to discover truths about reality

The oxford dictionary defines reliable as, able to be depended on or trusted. I trust my intellectual faculties to be capable of discovering truths about reality the majority of the time.

Is that sufficient for you to start your argument?

I know this all seems like semantics, but there has to be some nuance involved with discussions of this sort

Theist evidence/arguments.

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