Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I understand that entire chapter, and the entire subject Oscar. That is why I quoted other verses of that chapter to further clarify Paul's intent to keep foreign tongue speakers quite if there was no one able to understand in their own language. It is right there. Clear as a bell. It has NOTHING to do with babbling incomprehensibly as some kind of crazy "gift" from God. I guess some folk just only see what they want to see...

Including yourself. If you are going to criticise the gift in general and accuse Pentecostals and Charismatics (on this forum no less!!!) of being barbarians distorting the Holy Writ, then you need to show what Paul is saying about how to exercise the gift of tongues correctly. It was only the use of it in a public meeting that he said that they would be barbarians to those who did not understand what was being spoken, and the listener would be barbarians to them. But the private use of tongues directed to God is not being a barbarian because He understands exactly what you are saying, even if you don't understand it yourself.

If you think that tongues is just jibber jabber, then you need to be around Indians speaking Hindi, and Chinese people speaking Mandarin, because all you will hear what sounds like jibber jabber, but they understand each other even though it sounds like babble to us. I deal with clients sometimes through an interpreter and I have heard worse that way than through any Pentecostal service I have ever attended!

Do you think that God understands only King James English? Really?

I guess there are some who will say that if King James English is okay for Jesus and Paul, it is okay for them.

Actually, when my doctor used medical terms to explain a medical condition to me, I told him that those words sounded like tongues, and I will use them in church next Sunday!

 

[Biblicist]

Nothing "changed". To think that "tongues" spoken about a few pages later from Pentecost is a "different" tongues, that idea is a unscholarly personal translation and is dangerous improper handling of Holy Writ that only leads to conducting ones self like a barbarian.

An "unscholarly personal translation", are you serious? You definately need to go back and read the posts where I have quoted a number of scholars on this point....good grief!

 

[Biblicist]

No. I am not degrading the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What do you think when Paul said desire better gifts?

Oh, that's easy. The NIV footnote to 1Cor 12:31 has "But you are eagerly desiring" the better graces. This changes the traditional approach to this passage from being one that is 'indicative' to 'imperative' where it can also be translated as "continue to be zealously concerned..."

Where tongues by the way is also what Paul is referring to.

 

[ron4shua]

So, what is your analysis of this passage, and how are you applying it to modern believers?

I veiw these Scriptures as a parallel analogous revelation . The verbiage though sparce
speaks volumes to me . Spirit and Truth my brother , Spirit and Truth .
Hallel-YAH .

 

[Righttruth]

What does your common sense tell you? You can answer that one yourself!

I will admit that I can't claim anything when it is done without my understanding. I can understand from the ill effects from others to avoid it or when it is not clearly supported by the Bible. Not just one verse or part of the verse will do.

 

[Righttruth]

Oh, that's easy. The NIV footnote to 1Cor 12:31 has "But you are eagerly desiring" the better graces. This changes the traditional approach to this passage from being one that is 'indicative' to 'imperative' where it can also be translated as "continue to be zealously concerned..."

Where tongues by the way is also what Paul is referring to.

Yes, with regard to unknown tongue, Paul was saying to desire better graces indicating unknown tongue to be avoided.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I veiw these Scriptures as a parallel analogous revelation . The verbiage though sparce
speaks volumes to me . Spirit and Truth my brother , Spirit and Truth .
Hallel-YAH .

In other words you don't really know what the passage means.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, with regard to unknown tongue, Paul was saying to desire better graces indicating unknown tongue to be avoided.

Paul never said that. He said that he spoke in tongues more than anyone he knew. Does that sound like avoidance to you??????? Come on!!! I could be more explicit in my comments about what you wrote, but I would be violating the flaming rule!!! But imagine that I am jumping up and own, banging my desk and the walls and kicking the cat, and you will get the impression of my reaction! Oh, for Your sake Lord, open this guy's eyes!!! I'm off to have afternoon tea, and only valium and chocolate is going to calm me down now!

 

[ron4shua]

In other words you don't really know what the passage means.

Dear brother , if you can't see it , I could waist time for no avail . Not my job anyway .

 

[Biblicist]

Yes, with regard to unknown tongue, Paul was saying to desire better graces indicating unknown tongue to be avoided.

You started off so well where I even had high hopes, but then you went off onto a cessationist tangent which had no bearing with what Paul said...how annoying for you!

Now if you were to have said that Paul was saying to not only 'avoid' but to forbid outright the practice of uninterpreted tongues within the congregational setting, then you would have been right on the mark.

 

[Biblicist]

Dear brother , if you can't see it , I could waist time for no avail . Not my job anyway .

And who said God doesn't work miracles today!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Dear brother , if you can't see it , I could waist time for no avail . Not my job anyway .

Six munce ago I couldn't spel thearlogian but now I are one!

 

[Biblicist]

A brief return to the primary purpose of this thread:

Prophecy and inspired speech in early Christianity and its Hellenistic environment, Christopher Forbes. - Tubingen: Mohr, 1995 [section only]

2. Luke and Paul. That there are substantial differences between the accounts of glossolalia in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Acts 2 is clear from even a superficial reading. In Acts the "tongues” are widely intelligible; in 1 Corinthians they are unintelligible, and require "interpretation". In Acts ch. 2 they are a sign of the first great outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the church in his eschatological fullness. In the later references in Acts they are in every case closely associated with the experience of conversion and baptism. In other words, tongues are an initial Christian experience. Yet in 1 Corinthians they are never noted as an initial experience; rather they are part of the ongoing life of the individual and the community. Finally, in Acts glossolalia is a communal experience, occurring always within Christian groups, and there is no mention of a complementary gift of interpretation. In 1 Corinthians, though it is clear that uninterpreted glossolalia had been characteristic of the Corinthian assembly, Paul limits its value to individual use, and insists on interpretation or silence within the assembly.
​

Any serious work on either First Corinthians or with the subject of tongues will always contain references to Forbes' research.

 

[Winepress777]

A brief return to the primary purpose of this thread:

Prophecy and inspired speech in early Christianity and its Hellenistic environment, Christopher Forbes. - Tubingen: Mohr, 1995 [section only]

2. Luke and Paul. That there are substantial differences between the accounts of glossolalia in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and Acts 2 is clear from even a superficial reading. In Acts the "tongues” are widely intelligible; in 1 Corinthians they are unintelligible, and require "interpretation". In Acts ch. 2 they are a sign of the first great outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the church in his eschatological fullness. In the later references in Acts they are in every case closely associated with the experience of conversion and baptism. In other words, tongues are an initial Christian experience. Yet in 1 Corinthians they are never noted as an initial experience; rather they are part of the ongoing life of the individual and the community. Finally, in Acts glossolalia is a communal experience, occurring always within Christian groups, and there is no mention of a complementary gift of interpretation. In 1 Corinthians, though it is clear that uninterpreted glossolalia had been characteristic of the Corinthian assembly, Paul limits its value to individual use, and insists on interpretation or silence within the assembly.
​

Any serious work on either First Corinthians or with the subject of tongues will always contain references to Forbe's research.

Hogwash.

 

[Biblicist]

Hogwash.

Before you post such amazing and less than well thought-through comments, you might want to check out Forbes' credentials, especially with his teaching appointments and publications; where this rather fine experientially-cessationist theologian is quoted by all theologians, be they Pentecostal (classic and non-classic), charismatic, evangelical and even cessationists.

http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/facul...nt_of_ancient_history/staff/dr_chris_forbes/#

Remember, you are now on a Charismatic forum so maybe bus-stop or pub grade remarks are best minimised.

 

[Alithis]

No. I am not degrading the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What do you think when Paul said desire better gifts?

I think he meant what he said .. not what you want him to have meant .

he meant that in a setting of a public meeting of a congregation, tongues is not the most beneficial gift to those around the speaker, because they cannot understand what is being said. in no way did he mean it is any less or more ..they are all of the Holy Spirit .
but this thread has never been about that setting ..its about the wonderful gift of tongues ..which ..you do not seem to realise we sing in and pray in and commune with God .is private far far more then we do in public (excluding prayer meetings which are not meant to be a public setting .

 

[Alithis]

I am seeking two sources within the Bible to form any concept. Subjective convenient thinking will not do.

well you already know there are more then two
but are you seeking to form an intellectual concept of it all ? If so you have completely missed the point .. it cannot be comprehended by the carnal intellectual mind .

 

[Alithis]

You will notice that believers who pray in tongues and receive the blessings from it don't quibble about it. They just get on and use it and have a great time with God as they fellowship with Him. Those who never experienced the gift of tongues in actual practice know very little about it in practical terms. This is why they quibble over different theories and misquotes of Scripture. All it shows is their lack of knowledge of how to use the tools that come with The Holy Spirit.

yes ..a point of have often noted and voiced

 

[Alithis]

Hogwash.

AGAIN.. if you replied already iv missed it ..cant find it


hi , Winepress777, ... as i don't like to play guessing games ..it is easier to discuss these things with open honesty about the angle we are coming from or the perspective we are approaching the topic from ..
ANd please don't think im singling you out .ask others here .i asked the same question of everyone as i become aware of them in the topic ..

the questions are -

"Have you been baptized in the holy Ghost ?.. and if so.. how do you know ? [requires testimony ]

"have you spoken in tongues or received the gift of tongues "

dont worry its not asked to critique the answer ..just to know .

 

[Alithis]

How can you claim you pray according to the will of God, if you don't know what you are praying? Sorry, that is a preposterous claim!

preposterous? really thats a strong word .. does your strong worded claim align with the scripture?
let me give it to you in the amplified ..

"The Holy Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness (inability to produce results): for we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. But the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. And the Father Who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will." (AMP/NLT)