The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[drstevej]

The essence of God is not that simple to explain. Otherwise God is limited. It isn't just dominion. It is the capacity of love and choice. Animals exercise dominion over eachother all the time. Look at the food chain.

I prefer exegesis to speculation and opinion.

 

[drstevej]

Dominion is more than a food chain. I don't eat dogs. I do have dominion over them.

 

[sculleywr]

I prefer exegesis to speculation and opinion.

My thoughts are not your thoughts is the basis of that opinion. His thoughts are something we cannot comprehend. But we do have thoughts. That is undeniable. We cannot comprehend or explain God for He is infinitely more than us. But we know through His actions that we are given a choice. He has never forced us to do a single thing that we don't want to do. We do things because we want to do them. That is a fact of life. If predestination is true then we can say God made me do it. Or like lady gaga, I was born this way.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

I think the ass is already here.

 

[drstevej]

Yorkies have thoughts. Yorkie thoughts are not God's thoughts. Yorkies cannot comprehend or explain God for He is infinitely more than they are.

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[gracewriterrandy]

Strange that you don't want anyone to misrepresent your views, but you persist in misrepresenting the views of others. Calvinists don't believe God forces anyone to do anything he does not want to do. Consistency, thou art a jewel!

 

[gracewriterrandy]

This might come as a shock to you, but John was not the only NT writer. You might be profited to read Paul.

 

[sculleywr]

Yorkies have thoughts. Yorkie thoughts are not God's thoughts. Yorkies cannot comprehend or explain God for He is infinitely more than they are.

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Yorkies cannot comprehend us either. We think things above them.

 

[sculleywr]

Strange that you don't want anyone to misrepresent your views, but you persist in misrepresenting the views of others. Calvinists don't believe God forces anyone to do anything he does not want to do. Consistency, thou art a jewel!

If regeneration is a change of the will of man, then yes He does.

 

[sculleywr]

This might come as a shock to you, but John was not the only NT writer. You might be profited to read Paul.

Or Clement as well, whom Paul declared a holy man in the letter to Phillipi. Both declare choice.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

Skull,

Of course they believed in choice. Paul and John believed in choice. Calvin and Augustine believed in choice. Freedom of choice isn't the issue. Every smoker I have ever talked to about quitting that nasty habit has told me he or she could quit anytime they wanted to. The problem is, they don't want to.

Does a sinner have a free choice between choosing life and of choosing death, between choosing holiness and choosing sin? Absolutely! They can choose to be perfectly obedient to all God's commands anytime they want to. The issue is that because of their nature, they cannot want to. A person cannot choose that for which he has no desire and to which he is absolutely averse. Sinners love darkness rather than light. Because they hate the light, they will not come to the light. This is true of all sinners, not just some.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's backside about your Fathers. They were fallible men who were clearly wrong about many issues. I feel the same about John Calvin. The man was wrong about many many issues. He has no authority. Give it up on you church fathers. Start studying the grandfathers. If you would study the Bible a bit more, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

 

[Robert Pate]

The preaching of the Gospel brings with it the Holy Spirit.

When the Gospel is preached men hear and believe and are changed by the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:37. This is supernatural.

They are not changed by their own will, they are changed by the Holy Spirit working in their life. It is all of God.

 

[sculleywr]

Skull,

Of course they believed in choice. Paul and John believed in choice. Calvin and Augustine believed in choice. Freedom of choice isn't the issue. Every smoker I have ever talked to about quitting that nasty habit has told me he or she could quit anytime they wanted to. The problem is, they don't want to.

Does a sinner have a free choice between choosing life and of choosing death, between choosing holiness and choosing sin? Absolutely! They can choose to be perfectly obedient to all God's commands anytime they want to. The issue is that because of their nature, they cannot want to. A person cannot choose that for which he has no desire and to which he is absolutely averse. Sinners love darkness rather than light. Because they hate the light, they will not come to the light. This is true of all sinners, not just some.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's backside about your Fathers. They were fallible men who were clearly wrong about many issues. I feel the same about John Calvin. The man was wrong about many many issues. He has no authority. Give it up on you church fathers. Start studying the grandfathers. If you would study the Bible a bit more, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

I study both because I want the original meaning of scripture. I don't want my personal interpretation of Scriptures. The Scriptures are too precious a gift to use my own persona interpretation of them. That is why I study the fathers of the Church. That is why I know that Calvinism is not the original deposit of the faith. Because it is only an interpretation of the scripture. All interpretations have to be tested by the criteria that the full truth will be available to all generations. Since Calvinism and its tenets aren't, I reject it entirely.

 

[sculleywr]

The preaching of the Gospel brings with it the Holy Spirit.

When the Gospel is preached men hear and believe and are changed by the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:37. This is supernatural.

They are not changed by their own will, they are changed by the Holy Spirit working in their life. It is all of God.

Yes, but the Holy Spirit will never force Himself on them. They must open the door. He comes to all, so that all are without excuse. All who accept do so out of free will. All who reject do so out of free will. This is the message of the first Church.

 

[nobdysfool]

Too many people worship at the altar of free will.

 

[sculleywr]

Too many people worship at the altar of free will.

I worship at the altar of God, the Creator of the free will of man. Without it, we are only pawns in a chess game.

 

[drstevej]

I worship at the altar of God, the Creator of the free will of man. Without it, we are only pawns in a chess game.

So Mongo was a Calvinist?

Mongo only pawn in game of life - YouTube

 

[nobdysfool]

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[AndOne]

I have a question then. Why debate and evangelize? If God has already elected us, then why evangelize?

In regards to evangelism:

1). It is commanded in scripture.
2) We don't know who is elect and who isn't.
3) Since no Christian knows who is elect we assume everyone is capable of being saved and act accordingly through preaching, prayer, and persuasion knowing that ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who makes it possible for a person to receive the grace provided through the atoning blood of Jesus.

Our job as Christians isn't trying to figure out who is elect or not. It is simply to share the truth in hope that the person hearing it will be saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

There you go again.

We also believe that those who hear the gospel and embrace it as their only means of salvation are the elect. The difference is that we don't believe people become the elect by believing. We are the called ones according to his purpose; we do not determine what his electing purpose is by our decision.

God doesn't send anyone to hell for no reason. He sends people to hell because they are recalcitrant rebels against him. If he gave us justice, apart from the work of Christ, he would send us all to hell.

The words "Believe" and "Faith" are used hundreds of times in the New Testament.

There is not one scripture in the whole Bible where God or Jesus Christ has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. Don't you have trouble with that?

The "Called Ones" are those who have heard the Gospel and have embraced it as their only means of salvation. On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the Gospel and they came to Christ by the thousands, Acts 2:41.

It doesn't say that they were the elect or the predestinated.

Paul said that you receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

Jesus has victoriouly defeated sin, death and the devil for all, so that whosoever that calls upon his name can be saved, Romans 10;13.