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The Will of God

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Risen Tree, Nov 14, 2006.

True or false: God's will is always done.

  1. True

  2. False

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  1. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

    "God's will is not to violate man's will."

    Didn't look like it to Paul, on his way to Damascus!

    Paul's will was to execute Christians.
    Jesus literaly knocked him off his high horse so hard, it blinded him for a few days.
    Hardly a demonstration for the sacredness of "free" will, IMHO.
  2. ShammahBenJudah

    ShammahBenJudah Son of Zion

    First distinguish between God's will as 'boulomai' or 'purpose' and God's will as 'thelema' or 'desire'.

    God is not boulomai or willing that any should perish. But we know that many will.

    Jesus submitted His thelema or desires to God's boulomai or purpose in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    We're told to pray that God's thelema be done in earth as it is in heaven.

    He saw the end from the beginning, yet He was willing to create it all anyway. So ultimately, Yes God's will is always being done.
  3. eladoni

    eladoni And the Brain.

    If God's will is not always done, how do we reply to paul when he says in Romans 9: 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

    The question in the context is rhetorical, meaning that no one can resist God's will. To say that God's will can be thwarted, or stopped, is in essence, to claim equality of power with God, or at least an equality of will.

    God's good and perfect will is that all should be saved. However, it is also his will to let man resist his Holy Spirit in the work of salvation. He lets man resist, he could force a person to convert if he wanted him to, but it is his will that man should have free will, and that is why there is the appearance of being able to resist.

    What does the bible say about humans resisting God?
    Romans 1:21-25 says:
    21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    God, in his wisdom, punishes sin with sin.
    Again in psalm 81:11-12

    11 "But my people would not listen to me;
    Israel would not submit to me.
    12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
    to follow their own devices.

    From that passage, we can say 1. Since God gave them free will, they have the option to reject his Word (Christ, the torah in this case). 2. In all of these scenarios, when Israel either rejects God, or man rebels, God maintains perfect control. Never does man get "out of hand". 3. God, punishing sin with sin, gives them over to "their stubborn hearts" but the important thing, is that it is God who is doing this, they are not controverting his will, he is giving them his permission to reject him, that is the whole thing that free will is about.

    As far as the Lord's prayer. "What does Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" mean?
    First, we ask God to expand his kingdom, and that is come into its own. Second, we ask that his will be done among us. Asking that it be done, does not mean that it isn't done. It means that we want it done among us, and we desire his good and perfect will for our life.

    Another point is that often opposites are used to describe a whole. Such as "it's black and white" meanng that everything is clear. As in genesis chapter 1 where God "made the heavens and the earth" it refers to opposites to signify a whole. In the same way here "heaven" and "earth" is referring to everywhere. We are saying: "yes God, I want your will done everywhere in the universe".

    If that doesn't make sense, think of the "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". Does that mean that our sins aren't forgiven? No, Jesus died, we believe, our sins are forgiven. Yet why do we pray "forgive us"? Even though they are forgiven, we are saying that we want them forgiven.

    I could go on, but the Lord's prayer is really a much different topic...
  4. marke

    marke Senior Member

    "Amen my precious brother!", I'll second that.

    Yes, we have free choice. To follow the teachings or not to follow the teachings. We are told in NT scripture "not a sparrow falls". I believe Jesus. We should all be able to come to the same conclusion quickly on this one as PSM 139 speaks to this question too.

    God Bless. May we call conform ourselves to our example, Jesus Christ.
  5. Sleaker

    Sleaker Victory of the People

    Now see this is a contradiction. If God's will is that all men should be saved, then by the first argument you make all people would be saved eventually.

    But take it at this, man can choose to not follow God's will, which means for that person God's will is not being done. This is not to say that Man is as powerful as God, it is to say that God has chosen not to use His power to overcome the ability for man to choose.
    Romans 1:19 presents us with a paradox then between man's free will given by God and God's will as a plan over humanity.

    But as far as the question goes quite simply I can ask the question, Is it God's will that I sin? No. Yet I still sin, so God's will is not always carried out.

    God's Will and his Plan are one and the same thing, to attempt to make a distinction between the two is a misnomer, will is by definition a purpose, while a plan is a design, which is synonymous with purpose and will. If you plan something you purpose or will it to happen.

    Thesaurus on Purpose
  6. eladoni

    eladoni And the Brain.

    It is not a contradiction, because God wants all men to be saved, however he lets them resist.

    It is within God's will to let those people resist his will.
  7. Zeena

    Zeena ..called to BE a Saint

    It's part of God will that man has free will..
  8. ShammahBenJudah

    ShammahBenJudah Son of Zion

    This doesn't quite work. Consider Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. Neither He nor the Father had a desire for Jesus to suffer at Calvary. He wasn't a masochist. Because the purpose of man's salvation was higher, purpose was given priority over desire.

    Did Jesus desire for Lazarus to die? No, it grieved Him. But for the purpose of glorifying the Father it was allowed to happen.

    God's purpose and His desire are always in harmony with each other, but they are not always the same thing.

    When we read the Bible in English, we read several different words all translated as 'will'. If we read it as it was written, we can see the distinction between them.
  9. JimfromOhio

    JimfromOhio Life of Trials :)

    This is directly from the Word of God. God governs (controls) the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9). Doctor Luke explained God's Sovereign very clearly. Acts 17:24-29 (NIV) "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.

    The Bible clearly teaches that God knows beforehand what we will need and He will provide beforehand according to His will. God is absolutely powerful, that God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, that God is immutable, never changes, that God is all wise, perfectly just, holy, righteous. God is ruling all things to work together for our good and His purpose. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." A person is a responsible moral being, though he/she is also divinely controlled by God, therefore he/she is divinely controlled even though he/she is also a responsible for their freewill decisions in their hearts (before their actions). Remember, Jesus said in Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

    Many Christian liberal thinkers have differed regarding this from their own perspective rather than God's perspective simply because of man's doctrines rather than truth.

    Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

    Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

    Jeremiah 10:23 [ Jeremiah's Prayer ] I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

    Isaiah 48:17 This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go.

    Ecclesiastes 8:17 I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.
  10. lilymarie

    lilymarie The love of heaven makes one heavenly -Shakespeare

    Who are we as Christians to take authority over?

    Eph 6:10-17 (NIV) ...Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armour of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled round your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

    God has passed some will unto us... no?

    Also, I think things happen because of careless accidents of mankind and sometimes from greed or purposeful sin of mankind because of monies... for examples....

    First example -- Love Canal Tragedy, Niagara Falls, New York

    Toxic chemicals from leaky drums fill up the backyards of people's homes where their children played. People are becoming sick and mother's give birth to children with birth defects from serious toxic chemical poisoning in their own backyard.

    Was this God's will? Or man's?

    Second example: Some birth defects happen by accident from pregnant mothers of the past because of taking a prescription medication prescribed by regular everyday physicians. The drugs produce birth defects.

    Was this God's will? Or man's?


    Also, here's some definitions of the word


    Definition: 1. polite questions: used in questions to make polite invitations or offers
    [​IMG][​IMG]Will you sit down, please?
    [​IMG][​IMG]Will you have more coffee?

    2. requests: used in questions to make requests
    [​IMG][​IMG]Will you take the washing out for me please?
    [​IMG][​IMG]Phone the garage, will you?

    3. commands: used when ordering somebody to do something
    [​IMG][​IMG]You will do exactly as I say.

    4. customary behavior: used to indicate the way that something usually happens or the way that somebody usually does something
    [​IMG][​IMG]The wetter the road conditions, the harder it will be for a vehicle to stop.
    [​IMG][​IMG]When they're out together they will shop till they drop!

    5. willingness: used to indicate that somebody is willing to do something
    [​IMG][​IMG]I will mail your letters for you.
    [​IMG][​IMG]I will not tolerate this kind of behavior.

    6. ability: used to indicate the ability or capacity of something
    [​IMG][​IMG]That wardrobe will not fit in your bedroom.
    [​IMG][​IMG]The truck will carry loads of up to 10 tons.

    7. expectation: used to express surmise or likelihood
    [​IMG][​IMG]That will be them at the door now.
    [​IMG][​IMG]He will have left the country by now.

    8. inclination: used to indicate the inevitability of something happening or being true
    [​IMG][​IMG]She will stay up till all hours in front of the TV.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
  11. Aneeka

    Aneeka Lady of Shallot

  12. Somerset

    Somerset Well-Known Member

    Amen lilymarie!
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