The Wiccan Summerland?

[kangitanka]

just to add something to what fuzzy said, many catholics believe that if you have not been baptised you can not get into heaven, you go straight to hell, but personally i think thats BS.

More specifically
IX. NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
"In the seventh session, it declares (can. v) anathema upon anyone who says that baptism is not necessary for salvation. We have rendered votum by "desire" for want of a better word. The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism, The absolute necessity of this sacrament is often insisted on by the Fathers of the Church, especially when they speak of infant baptism. "
(bold emphasis mine)
From HERE

 

[sioleabha]

Heaven (and I happily invite Christians to correct me on this one):
A place of glory, with no pain, disease, sexuality, dperession, or anything that
causes grief. People are in the presence of God.

How one gets to Heaven, in my understanding, varies from denomination to
denomination, with an emphasis on being a "good" person, having a relationship
with the divine, and possibly doing good acts for others or following the sacraments.
The simplified path is if you're a good person, and do what's right in the eyes
of God, you go to Heaven.

...

For those that seek Heaven, some groups teach you go straight there dependent on
your relationship with God, others that there may be some time in Purgatory first,
and others that only a few, previously chosen get in. A common factor here is that
those who go to Heaven have a favorable relationship to divinity, since Heaven is
a "reward" place.

I wouldn't quite describe heaven as such. Heaven is not a "reward" for good people. While some Christian denominations stress good works more than others, none teach that any person can be saved by goodness alone without Christ. Salvation is less a function of our own works, and more a gift that we accept through developing a relationship with God. Good works usually fall in more like either being a natural result of that relationship, or a necessary component, or something in between. They are never a way to earn salvation.

(Edited because while posting people started talking about baptism. I would say that's an example of claiming that a certain work is a necessary component of our relationship. No one, certainly not the Catholic Church, would claim that baptism is worth anything if it is not part of a relationship with Christ. Without that, it's only a bath.)

Also, as far as a "reward," I guess it kind of is in the sense that it's a good place where we will be happy. But it's also more like where everyone is supposed to be after death. Heaven is the natural result of the relationship with God for which we were designed. Just as Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden, so we were meant to be. Everything else is an abberation created by humans. When someone doesn't go to heaven, that's an abnormal (meaning deviating from the standard, not meaning unusual) occurrence. I guess it could be compared to the idea of a soul getting "lost" and staying on earth rather than continuing to the afterlife, only these souls got "lost" while still alive.

I don't know anything about Wicca, but based on the description given by Fuzzy, here's how I would compare them:

Both are the natural, normal place to go after death. But with heaven there is an alternate place you might end up if you don't follow the path. Summerland is a resting place before moving on. Heaven is final, and from a Christian perspective it is earth that is transitionary. Summerland doesn't sound like it has much purpose (by which I mean, there isn't some big event going on there), while heaven is a place of ultimate purpose -- fulfillment of that for which we were created, a relationship with God.

 

[Paulos23]

In this comparison of Summerland and Heaven I am reminded of a Zen story:

Master: Where do enlightened people go after they die?
Student: I don't know.
Master: Why don't you know?
Student: Becuase I'm not dead yet.

Arguing about the difference between Summerland and Heaven is like arguing about the color of the light of the farthist star, it distracts from the now. Instead of worrying about what happens after dead maybe you should enjoy the mystery and beauty that is life.

 

[Wicked Willow]

I, for one, am an eclectic Wiccan who doesn't believe in the Summerlands, Heaven, Hell, Valhalla or any other conception of the Afterlife. As pleasant as such an imaginary "locus amoenus" might be, there's little to suggest that it exists, and much to suggest that it doesn't. If there's an afterlife at all, it is unknowable to the living by definition, for none have returned - and those who believe that they did usually pander to the descriptions that are most prevalent in their own culture.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Paulos, I couldn't possibly agree more!

 

[Wicked Willow]

Me neither!

 

[Cassiopeia]

In this comparison of Summerland and Heaven I am reminded of a Zen story:

Master: Where do enlightened people go after they die?
Student: I don't know.
Master: Why don't you know?
Student: Becuase I'm not dead yet.

Arguing about the difference between Summerland and Heaven is like arguing about the color of the light of the farthist star, it distracts from the now. Instead of worrying about what happens after dead maybe you should enjoy the mystery and beauty that is life.

Well said!

I have come to that place where I have found that being in the moment, present to actually live my life has given me renewed strength to be the kind of person I want to be. I am no longering living in fear of what might be.

 

[sioleabha]

Interesting idea. I think, however that it would be equally sad to go through life without understanding the bigger picture.

To continue the birthday analogy, it would be like being at your own first birthday. You'll be confused by the cake and scared by the clown (ie, confused and scared unnecessarily), fascinated by the wrapping paper (unimportant, transient things), maybe you'll recognize your own gifts. But you'll never realize the significance of the day, and everyone else will get more out of it more than you will.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Hmmmm... I've never understood that approach to life. How does life get *more* significant when you imagine it as a mere prelude to the "real" thing, a fabled wonderland of eternal bliss? I've heard so many Christians say that life would be meaningless to them if it weren't for their belief in an afterlife. Why is that so? Does it spring from a desire for permanence within the impermanent? Is it born of a desperate craving for stability and security, the wish to cement things once and for all, rather than facing the daunting prospect of Change?
Change is the essence of life, and stasis its antithesis.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Sexuality, birth, childhood, adolescence, middle age, old age, death: It's all part of the Dance, the Cycle that keeps on turning from Life towards Death and back again.

 

[livingword26]

Heaven is literally being in the full presence of God. We are told that we were to created to be merged with God, to be a "home" for God. In the next life, those of us who choose to go with Him will live in His presence, in peace, eternally. In contrast to most other views of the afterlife, they promise things, places, or some form of gratification, but Christs heaven is with Him and in Him, He is our gratification and fulfilment. Hell is not being in His presence, but being seperated from Him, (by our own choice, He would not purposefully destroy or punish anyone).

 

[malkaviananatole]

the whole concept of the after life being unknowable is a good view, i think its absolutely right. and living in the here and now is better then dweling on the past or future, what has happened is beyond our control to change, and wishing will not make the future turn out how you want it to. but i believe that sometimes, while sitting alone in the dark night, thinking of what is ahead is a good thing, dont wish cus that wont work, but you need to think on what possibilities are out there. and finatical views like some posters we have seen is simply idiotic, "Love thy neighbor as thy self" the comments many people make about "my religion is better" is not showing love, or even respect to you fellow man, respect and love them enough to at least listen to their beliefs, even if you dont think they are correct. after all since the afterlife, and whatever force ACTUALLY DOES control the universe, are both unknowable how can you, a mere mortal, a grain of sand in the wide spectrum of life, possible knwo anything about what actually is. remember that at one point EVERYONE KNEW the earth was round, and that it was the center of the universe...what will we know next that is shown to be wrong?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Aaaaah, you gotta love those Malkavians...

 

[malkaviananatole]

yes one must love us, but there are things you must always remember...


"There's a pleasure sure
in being mad
Which none but madmen know..."
-John Drydenand of course the warning...

"When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave.
When two Malkavians gather, run."



but of course this is all off the topic, now let us return to it.
-Gangrel, on Malkavians

 

[sioleabha]

Hmmmm... I've never understood that approach to life. How does life get *more* significant when you imagine it as a mere prelude to the "real" thing, a fabled wonderland of eternal bliss? I've heard so many Christians say that life would be meaningless to them if it weren't for their belief in an afterlife. Why is that so? Does it spring from a desire for permanence within the impermanent? Is it born of a desperate craving for stability and security, the wish to cement things once and for all, rather than facing the daunting prospect of Change?
Change is the essence of life, and stasis its antithesis.

It's a desire to understand the importance of what is going on here, to understand what we're supposed to be doing, and to be able to do that. It's easy to waste 70 years as though they had no purpose other than temporary happiness. When you know what's coming next you can plan, can work towards a goal. You have a better grasp of which things in life are important and will reap eternal rewards.

How could it be better to remain ignorant?

 

[sioleabha]

Ah, but I follow my faith for my own satisfaction, not so that others will get more out of the experience than I... So that's where the analogy fails. If you're following a faith that you do not understand and do not find the significance of, then it's time to change faiths, no matter how happy you being that faith makes others.

You completely missed what I said. I said that living without an understanding of the bigger picture means that YOU are getting less, and that others who understand are getting more, just as an infant at his first birthday understands nothing of the celebration and does not enjoy it as much as the adults who know what's going on. Sure, the baby has fun, but not remember-this-forever-fun.

 

[sioleabha]

the whole concept of the after life being unknowable is a good view, i think its absolutely right. and living in the here and now is better then dweling on the past or future, what has happened is beyond our control to change, and wishing will not make the future turn out how you want it to. but i believe that sometimes, while sitting alone in the dark night, thinking of what is ahead is a good thing, dont wish cus that wont work, but you need to think on what possibilities are out there. and finatical views like some posters we have seen is simply idiotic, "Love thy neighbor as thy self" the comments many people make about "my religion is better" is not showing love, or even respect to you fellow man, respect and love them enough to at least listen to their beliefs, even if you dont think they are correct. after all since the afterlife, and whatever force ACTUALLY DOES control the universe, are both unknowable how can you, a mere mortal, a grain of sand in the wide spectrum of life, possible knwo anything about what actually is. remember that at one point EVERYONE KNEW the earth was round, and that it was the center of the universe...what will we know next that is shown to be wrong?

How can a mere mortal know what is immeasurably beyond his reach? Only one way: if the Divine chooses to reach out to man. If God speaks, if God comes to meet you. That's how man can know.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's a desire to understand the importance of what is going on here, to understand what we're supposed to be doing, and to be able to do that.

Well, let me compare this to my own POV, just to illustrate where I'm standing. In order to understand the importance of what is going on, I don't require the prospect of remaining in my current shape or identity for the rest of eternity. To me, every grain of sand is sacred, by virtue of *existing*. Every fleeting moment is part of the Eternal Now, and nothing could ever make the Present insignificant.

It's easy to waste 70 years as though they had no purpose other than temporary happiness.

And that's exactly what I don't understand: You seem to believe that life without the prospect of an afterlife becomes a meaningless exercise that should be exploited hedonistically, and that the notion of Heaven and Hell is the only thing that keeps us from doing so by establishing a *meaning*.
I don't see that. In order to do so, I'd have to embrace an utterly self-centered view of life. But I don't. My actions matter because they affect everything that surrounds me: my (hypothetical) children, my loved ones, my neighbours, the stranger down the block, other countries, the environment. I may be but a fleeting speck of dust, but still my life affects others, no matter whether I'll still be here tomorrow or not. Why should I want to cause suffering and hurt for personal gain? Because my life is finite? But it matters *right here, right now*. To me, to others, to the generations that come after me.

When you know what's coming next you can plan, can work towards a goal. You have a better grasp of which things in life are important and will reap eternal rewards.

I'm not acting kindly towards others to reap rewards, neither eternal nor temporal. I do it to increase the well-being of all that surround me, and to decrease the suffering of the same. What additional reward is necessary? Being stuck forever in this incarnation, with this personality, this shape (spiritual or otherwise), this specific psyche? I like myself well enough, but an eternity of being Me strikes me as stagnant and sterile.

 

[livingword26]

But I've never seen the point of not experiencing all of a gourmet meal that is in front of you because you're too busy theorizing about what dessert will be like. If you feel differently, fine. I just hope that one day you won't realize that theorizing about what you don't have is a waste of what you do have.

This also is a bad analogy. If dinner is life and dessert is the afterlife, then the dinner is the biggest part. In reality, our physical existance is but a moment in time compared to the rest of eternity. So if your dinner tastes oh so good, but is laced with poison, what a waste it is! You have given up eternity for a moment. I don't think that she is talking about theorizing, but about planning and listening and awaiting the arrival of the big picture. If one just skips along and plays games, and does not know what is going to be required of them, then a big surprise may be awaiting them.

 

[Paulos23]

Interesting idea. I think, however that it would be equally sad to go through life without understanding the bigger picture.

To continue the birthday analogy, it would be like being at your own first birthday. You'll be confused by the cake and scared by the clown (ie, confused and scared unnecessarily), fascinated by the wrapping paper (unimportant, transient things), maybe you'll recognize your own gifts. But you'll never realize the significance of the day, and everyone else will get more out of it more than you will.

Intresting, but I think your missing something here. To continue with your analogy, what you get out of your birthday is yours, it is no one elses. Granted your not going to get what other people think you should get out of it, but that is ok. If you where to do things at your birthday party that others dictate to you (granted at your first one you don't really have a choice being only one) then you will miss out on everything else you can experence at your birthday party.

What my story was about was that we dont' know what is on the other side of death, so why worry to much about it? If you have lived a good life according to your faith and beliefs then you have nothing to worry about and should enjoy life and living and not worry about something you have no control over (for can you be sure you know what the final jugement will be? if there is one?).

There are many diffent paths to get you where your going, why worry that you are on the one that other people say you have to be on?