Then you agree that motherhood was changed by becoming painful but her desire doesn't change anything pre-existant but institutes a heirarchy of authority?Not a normal desire, but a dysfunctional one. It is ridiculous to think that Eve, who was previously given the mandate to be fruitful and multiply, had no desire for Adam until her fallen nature kicked in.
Well, I didn't post an understanding of the text. You quote a tradition that doesn't include a fall then use it to substantiate a chronology that doesn't exist.
Certainly western governments are going that way and many of the institutions like universities and larger corporations are as well. If you believe in social justice then yes the aim is for equal levels of men and women participation. Social justice is just another word for equity and equity (equal outcomes) is the new buzz word being pushed.
So there for the left cannot complain about inequality for women when its not because of the patriarchy that there is not enough women in STEM.
But the leftist groups are always making out that the only reason is the patriarchy and males are at fault for oppressing women. That is only a small part of it.
As we are seeing in modern society that some are targeting me as being bad and the cause of all womens problems.
This model promotes individualism, economic success where not only women and parents are denied and left behind but most minorities like the disable, uneducated and indigenous as well.
businesses cannot be expected to accommodate all sorts of flexible hours if they are to be successful.
If we want to make families and shared care the priority then we need to fundamentally change the system into a collectivist one where families are the most important and not just blame males under a patriarchy.
Patriarchy is about authority within families.
As you know, abortion is about authority within families.
Don't get me wrong social justice is both good and necessary. Its how we go about addressing this. As I have pointed out todays thinking sees it as correcting an imbalance where policies need to increase the participation of minorities regardless of whether its deserved on the basis of ability. It doesnt matter what you or I think social justice is, its what is being applied by those in positions of power which primarily is the government and this usually influences big coroporations. I have already mentioned Canada and the US and now we are seeing the same from the Australian government even as we speak. They are talking about bringing in quotasYou're painting with a very broad brush, here. I believe in social justice - I even see it as an indispensable part of the Missio Dei and thus the mission of the Church - but that doesn't mean I agree that the aim is for men and women to participate equally in every type of work.
Part of the problem here is unpacking the questions of justice and injustice, and how best to transform injustice. There is a huge variety of schools of thought on those issues, even among people who broadly agree that "social justice" is good and/or necessary.
Yes the patriarchy is a problem perhaps in all western nations but it’s just not the only problem or reason females are not represented in certain jobs and fields. The problem I am highlighting is that for some like feminists and the left it is the only reason why women females are underrepresented and there is a pay gap. So the issue is about degrees and not whether it happens at all.But we know that patriarchy is an issue in other western countries. We know that women and girls are discouraged from participating in those fields even from a young age. This is worth a read: The STEM Gap: Women and Girls in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math – AAUW : Empowering Women Since 1881
I disagree and this is a good example of how the feminist view is skewed towards women being the most affected rather than taking the overall balanced view of how everyone is affected. So when we balance things up we can see for example men are more likely to die on the job, end up in jail, are more likely to be in poverty, be unemployed, made redundant, less likely to be re-employed after losing their job, are less educated and are more often homeless.Patriarchy is only one factor, true. There are other issues, such as the way poverty perpetuates itself in our economic system. But that these problems disproportionately affect women show us that, even when men are not directly oppressing women, we have a patriarchal system which does not take into account the particular needs of women.
Funny that you should mention such a book when there is evidence of the very opposite happening in today’s society where it is women who receive positive bias and men the negative bias. For exampleThis is a common misunderstanding when we talk about the problems of patriarchy. But as I said, patriarchy has to do with the systems we construct, and the way those systems affect men and women. It's not just directly about men "being bad" (although that happens, far more than it should), it's about systems which geared to and perpetuate a male-dominated world. The book Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men is a really useful insight into this aspect of patriarchy.
Yes it’s sort of what I am talking about though for a slightly different point. I am describing how each minority group is affected by the system of capitalism and neoliberalism. Rather intersectionality is how an individual’s different identities such as their gender, race, class, disability and physical status give them privilege or discriminate against them.Congratulations; you just discovered intersectionality.
It depends on what sort of business. But the idea that a business has to change its operations to accommodate parents with kids has always been an issue for industry in how they can do this without affecting production. Flexibility can only go so far and then it becomes a cost burden. I know from experience that parents find it hard to get work and its not because of businesses being inflexible. Its just a fact of work life.Actually, often businesses do better when they offer their employees more flexibility, in part because they are able to recruit and retain the best at what they do, even across changing life circumstances.
That would only apply to those organisations that can work flexibly. But to expect employers to change their work practices to accommodate parents of young kids is a bit unreal. It’s not going to increase productivity if they can only rely on those employees at certain times or have them not come into work or be called away due to young children being sick etc.Again, patriarchy isn't about "blaming males." It's about recognising that the current systems benefit men over women. That said, social changes which prioritise family bonds may well end up being of benefit when viewed through a feminist lens.
Alternative universe. Now, kind brother, that is an interesting way to say it, LOL. An alternate universe, or alternate reality, is a hypothetical self-contained plane of existence, co-existing within one's own mind. Or, in this case it exists in certain minds that have coalesced together... and they are forming something, something massive. The progressive theologies create an alternative universe outside of sacred tradition. Gay pride theology, egalitarian theology, feminists theology, black liberation theology, and there may be others that I don't know about. They re-interpret scripture, history, tradition, and even words... then use these constructs to tear down or re-define the Faith. Well, the Faith is still there... it is just getting superimposed, or counterfeited over, by an alternative church.I am afraid if this stuff makes sense to you, then I must like in an alternative universe.
Actually patrarchy is still happening in countries like Norway and Scaninavia who are the most egalitarian nations in the world. So this shows two things. First that the Patriarchy is something that is not that easy to get rid of and perhaps is a natural part of society and second that the more a nation becomes equal the more genders become different which shows that making things more equal actually brings out the differences and this shows that much of the claims about the patriarchy being the cause of inequality may be wrong. Yes the patriarchy is a problem perhaps in all western nations but it’s just not the only problem or reason females are not represented in certain jobs and fields. The problem I am highlighting is that for some like feminists and the left it is the only reason why women females are underrepresented and there is a pay gap. So the issue is about degrees and not whether it happens at all.
Patriarchy established before the fall.
Gen 2-24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Note this happened before parents existed. The authority in families is parental. Children are bone of their bone flesh of their flesh. A man must leave his parents because he must get out from under the umbrella of authority of his parents to establish authority in his own family. The Scripture I posted established the order of authority in the future family of Adam and Eve.
The progressive theologies create an alternative universe outside of sacred tradition. ... They re-interpret scripture, history, tradition, and even words... then use these constructs to tear down or re-define the Faith. Well, the Faith is still there... it is just getting superimposed, or counterfeited over, by an alternative church.
Patriarchy itself is not evil. It is only evil when it is made of evil people. And breaking the curse in that way, with social systems, it might be preached somewhere....The persistence of patriarchy is exactly what we would expect. That's the nature of a curse- they are difficult if not impossible to break. But that doesn't mean we accept it as something great. We fight it because it is evil.
So you say.That doesn't say anything about rule or authority, so it isn't about patriarchy. The rule of the man is first mentioned in 3:16. THAT was the start of patriarchy.
So you say.
Why do you think parents are mentioned in that passage I posted and why the man must leave them but not the woman?
Patriarchy itself is not evil. It is only evil when it is made of evil people.
And breaking the curse in that way, with social systems, it might be preached somewhere....
But Adam by the garden, serpent, and curse did not preach that. Noah of the ark and flood did not preach that. Moses in the law nor the prophets preached that. David by prayer and song did not preach that. John the Baptist from the desert by the river did not preach that. Jesus born to the Jews did not preach that. Mary, Peter, nor John, nor any of them with Jesus preached that. Paul blinded and seeing again did not preach that. The early Fathers and Martyrs did not preach that. My grandfathers did not preach that. My mom and dad did not preach that. Nor my pastors. But maybe I missed a nuance here and there.
Ah, I know of this one place in the scriptures. Three times Satan proposed another way and three times Christ refused the temptation. I hear echoes of the time that or Lord Jesus Christ was taken “to a very high mountain and showed all the kingdoms of the world”. Satan proposed that the remedy for our sin be in earthy systems that Satan would give to Jesus. For worship. But Satan was made to keep his vile place, on his belly and eating dust. Because our Lord Jesus Christ did not go that way. It is only through Christ and His Way that we may enter the Kingdom of God.
Our Lord Jesus Christ cursed the fig tree, that same tree that first covered Adam and Eve at paradise lost. And later, in Gethsemane, again we are in a garden. And again there is sweat . In prayer, "His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground." The cursed ground. And on His way to paradise, I say paradise because He later told the thief, “today... paradise”, on His way He was captured and made prisoner. The beatings and the pain. And the Roman whip with how many lashes we guess. To say the name of each lash I can not without tears. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39. And then we see Christ crowned with those sharp, sharp thorns of the curse. And spit upon. Our Lord Jesus Christ hung on a tree, on a hill. The place of the skull. Some say Adam’s skull. Light left and the cursed ground did shake. “It is finished”, our Lord Jesus Christ did say. Forgive me if ever I say otherwise. Sunday morning, stone rolled away.
And now I am thinking of this song by Crowder.
No, brother. That is not what I wrote. Read it again. Only Christ can break the curse. Not social systems made by human hands or the demonic. Not progressive theologies or governments . That was the Devil's offer on the mountain that Jesus rejected.There you seriously compared the righteousness of Christ with the patriarchy. That is really sad. If Jesus had made the stones into bread, if he would have thrown himself down from the temple, if he had worshipped the devil, in all these ways he would have sinned, going against his own perfect nature.
You might have a point if patriarchy were part of the perfect nature of God, but instead it is part of the fallen nature of man. There is no comparison.
I don't count patriarchy as central to the Gospel. But I do count the teachings of Paul to be part of it. Yet, the Bible does show or teach a pattern about family and church structure. I think this should be followed to the best of our ability. But even that is not central to the Gospel. It is not "core" as you say.Now, the question really posed by this thread is about the centrality of the idea of Patriarchy to the Gospel.
Now you have, and others also, put the case that the idea of Patriarchy is central to the Gospel, that it is part of the fibre of the vine into which we have been grafted, that it is a central core to the story of salvation.
Now others have, myself included, the Patriarchy was part of the cultural milieu in which the narrative of salvation was first played, and that if we look deeply at the story we will find that Patriarchy is not part of the core.
One of the things I have learned is that some things we have in life help us move forward, to grow, to get better, and then we get to a point where these are the things that hold us back, and ultimately these old familiar things are the things we have to be let go of.
By the way, I love your drawings.
That said, Eve names Cain, Able, and Seth. So, does this mean that Eve, their mother, is in authority over them.
No, brother. That is not what I wrote. Read it again. Only Christ can break the curse. Not social systems made by human hands or the demonic. Not progressive theologies or governments . That was the Devil's offer on the mountain that Jesus rejected.
Where did I compare the righteousness of Christ with patriarchy? And how could you gather that from "It is only through Christ and His Way that we may enter the Kingdom of God" and " 'It is finished', our Lord Jesus Christ did say. Forgive me if ever I say otherwise."
Please quote me ... or better explain your takeaway.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?