The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[prodromos]

Do you honestly expect me to believe that such a subsstance that destroys familes and lives every week is a reflection of the glory of Jesus Christ's first miracle?

You continue to conflate abuse of the substance with the substance itself.

 

[prodromos]

This is getting away from the heart of the issue. Whether his science is exact or not in one point or area is not the real issue here. The point is that alcohol dries things out and it kills and destroys.

Another person would say alcohol preserves.

I mean, you have heard that alcohol does kill brain cells right? In any event, whatever goes on inside the body, alcohol deadens a person's physical and mental senses (Which is not a good thing) unless one is trying to temporarily relieve suffering.

Once again you are describing the results of excess consumption of alcohol. Excess consumption of any good thing will have bad effects on the body.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,
I had a man to talk to one night. The talk was serious. An undiscovered alchololic mentally ill person was watching us. She was not drinking. As the talk exhausted me, this priest brought out something green in a bottle. It was alcoholic. We both had some. We continued the talk. As the evening progressed, each of us, in this high level intense conversation would become exhausted, like in a long lasting wedding party, and without thinking like taking a drink of water to quench our thirst, we would take a drink to quench our exhaution. When I was done and he was done, never noticing that either of us were what is called drunk, the other person spoke up.
You both drank a whole bottle of Alcohol. She meant how can we drink that much and not be drunk.
Story one is complete.

A man appproached me. My father was an automobile mechanic when I was growing up. I went to Electrical Engineering School, but I put myself through school working a long shift in the evening and weekends for my parents. I went on 5 hours a sleep a night, to graduate college. It was brutal.

A man approaches me at work. "My car blew a head on the freeway. I need it to work by Monday. Please come over and help me after work." This was a Friday night, and I was doing engineering work for Fairchild Reserch and Developement Labs in California. They were the folks who took over from Shockley, from Shockley Labs.

Notice. I have finished and normal week. It is Friday. I commute to work. This is not a task to take on, by Monday. I did.

He had a hot rod. It was a 1966 Corvette, but this was 1972 or so, thus the car was considered fairly new. He had cracked a head, and I know about these things. He does not. So, I am the technical expert, but not the machinist on this job. I can and have worked on heads rebuilding them, and car engines etc.

We worked till we became entirely exhausted. We take a break. He starts to speak. "Lets take a drink" No. No I am not going to do that. "We are not going to take a normal drink." No. A drink will make me sleepy. I am not doing it. "We are going to take half a drink. It will revive us. Trust me." I said nothing externally. At least I hope I didn't.
Here I was. This engineer also a Electrical Engineer, also came up the hard way through life, also working at same research lab I was working in, is telling me to trust him, on this. I did not trust him. This is ridiculous I am not going to do this. He goes on. "We will have Vodka and Orange Juice. Half a drink each." I am not going to do this. No one drinks, when working on engines. No one.

After the drink, we went back to work. Every three hours or so, maybe two we had half a drink. By morning the heads were out in time to go to the machine shop. When the heads came back we put them in. Again we used the drinks to keep us awake. We used the drinks to super charge us.

Sunday morning came. Still no one had slept a wink. The car was done. It did work. And I went to work on Monday, no worse for the wear.

Story two is done.

In 2007 or so, under pressure from a newer graduate from College but still and older woman, I spoke up in a group of people, who I had modified my work habits, to work with pleasantly. I had been working with these types for years. They never complained, about me. Never. This woman in hearing how I worked with them took offense. She was offended, by me. "You always change your words. You start out using a word then you change it." Yes, I have been asked to do that. "It is insulting" No. The guys I work with asked me, silently to do that.
She was having none of that. In a few day she would get her way, and I would pay the price. But, she did need to learn this. I needed to learns something also. And I did, and was amply rewared by God for this.
The day came. I am at my cubicle desk. I am the point person in that group. Unknowingly of the four of us, on our 12 hour shift of handling people's computer problems and automatic Semiconductor Manufacturing equipment, I was doing 80% of all the work that was assigned to the group. That freed up everyone else to do whatever it is that they wanted to do. What they wanted to do was improve the area. And they did. What I did not know at the time was my contribution. I did not know that 80% of the work, for a call center and repair shop was all done by me and me alone.
This is years and years after the drinking to work. So my brain is still functional. That is why I said this so far.
There is one more story point to make, on alcohol and brain dissolving, if it is actually true or not. I drank and drink, when I feel like it. I have for years. Brains that dissolve over the years would be not useful at age 60 or so under that continual event, if true.
I am 60 at this point.

I am getting there.

In the midst of my work group, she arrives. The conversation is light. We are sitting she is standing. She is walking by our area. Then she says her point nicely. "There. You are doing it again. Stop it. It is insulting. We are not that stupid." Bang. It is there. She is nice. She still does not understand. I am so concerned about her not understanding that Immediately without thinking about anything, but her nice request, I speak to her only. "Look. My intellegence on a scale of one to five, is five point two five. If you want me to ramp it back up again I will do that. I work at an intelligence level of three point oh. I do that to get along with everyone. I will ramp it back up again. "
I ramped it back up again. What a disaster. I just wen full on research engineer, with full depth in all my conversations. It was a blur.
And hour and a half later, in this tragic situation, somehow no one is calling. I am somehow in my cubicle. If the next part didn't happen, like the rest of what ensued from ramping up, I would not recall.
Hands out of nowhere, hit my shoulders. I could not look up. I remembered though. What I remembered was the agony I was in, the embarassment I was in. It didn't work to ramp up again. I was in my cubicle so shaken, that I had my head in my hands. I was waiting for this disaster to pass. Her hands, my accusers hands were on my shoulders. She did not ask me anything. She just put her hands on my shoulder. I was so sick, emotionally, that I could not move.
It was her recognition, that I was right. Never was I treated by this group as normal ever again.
I have been drinking all of my life, off and on since I was young. I am a wine expert of the highest caliber there is. I know how to judge wines, as I stayed in California for 23 years, in THe Bay Area, and drank and drank and drank, until I accidentally became a fine wine expert, by the highest standard known then, and known now. I drink what I like and what is good, totally indendent of price and brands.
I teach other newbies to do that also. If they do they progress. And it is this drinker, to you, that is doing a bad thing, by your thoughts, in destroying her brains.
No one, excels me brain wise. No one. I have my equals. I have no superiors. My equals call on me to solve problems that they cannot solve. I know lots of people like me. It is complicated though. God helps. It is more complicated than that though. I have seen that connection, and it has been proven to me.
I saw that connection within weeks or days of those two hands on my shoulders. One on each shoulder. But, that is off topic for your stated and implied points.

Almost done.

It only takes one experiment to prove anything is wrong really. That is what experiements are primarily for, in the upper reaches of Science, where God resides, and we all feel Him, in our work. What I cannot prove wrong, is sometimes exactly what God has done.
Science in my world, is this: "What God has actually done." For you it is what God has actually done, in partiality. Partially. It is not all that God has done. It is just one thing, that God has done.

Using me alone, and what is said about me, and what I have gone through. A wedding party is a pefect place to stay awake, not ever becoming drunk but partying for days and days, by taking a drink containing alcohol, whenever I become physically exhausted. Even some skippers on ships do that with their crews, and half beers are made specifically for that, but it is only done with long hours, and when lives depend upon it, lives of others depend on the crew being entirely awake and functioning, in war like circumstances.
I have used Creme de Minth, half of the whole large bottle almost, just to get through a long and very important conversation, accidentally. If the woman had not been so stunned with me and my host, having just done that, with no normal reactions to her, I would not ever remember that incident.
I would also not remember the other car engine incident, if it wasn't so bizarre. It is so bizarre, because what people say is true about that, is actually false. It is true only some of the time, and it is totally false in those other extreme circumstances, like a wedding party that goes on, and on........and on.
And my late age accidental, revealing my actual intelligence that is available to me, but rarely used, counters your alcohol dissolve the brain item also.
Two things, these real world experiments, all unplanned, show that you are wrong, on your statements of alcohol and it's badness.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

While alcohol does not immeditely kill brain cells upon consumption of alcohol, it can damage them and even lead to even killing them upon the abuse of such a drug.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120709/Does-alcohol-kill-brain-cells.aspx

In other words, alcohol can technically kill brain cells if it is abused.

Also, some people have more of a tolerance to alcohol than other people due to many factors that are involved. Your metabolism, weight, and height, and what you ate that day, etc. all play a factor on your tolerance to alcohol. Some people can get drunk more quickly on very little alcohol. So pointing to your life as an example that alcohol as being safe does not really mean anything. Alcohol is a depressant. It is not a stimulant. You were able to work because your adrenaline was kicking in and there was orange juice in your system (all with the food that you ate), as well. Alcohol is called a depressant because it slows down the nervous system and blocks some of the messages in trying to get to the brain.

Alcohol is techincally not even a food but it is a drug (Hence, why there is no nutritional label on the bottles). It offers no nutritional value. Oh yes. Alcohol does contain a very small amount nutrients within it, but it requires far more nutrients from other foods just to metabolize the alcohol that you drink. So the nutrients within the alcohol does not do you any good. Hence, why a person cannot just drink alcohol and not eat or drink anything that day that is of nutritional value.

https://www.bouldermedicalcenter.com/nutrition-recommendations-consume-alcohol/

Actually the over use of alcohol can damage 5 major organs in your body.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/alcohol...ing-destroyed-your-alcohol-consumption-291440

In 2013, it was estimated that every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 51 minutes.

• In 2013, 10,076 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.
• Of the 1,149 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2013, 200 (17%) involved an alcohol-impaired driver.
• Of the 200 child passengers ages 14 and younger who died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes in 2013, over half (121) were riding in the vehicle with the alcohol-impaired driver.

In fact, 2.5 Million Alcohol Related Deaths happen on average globally. Surely this is not what the LORD had intended as being the "good wine."

Side Note:

Also, I want to point out again that your life experience is not the same as the Word of God (Which is our authority). If Jesus made alcoholic intoxicating wine he would have broke Scripture in many places.

See this post here to check out 6 Biblical reasons why Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine at Cana.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Another person would say alcohol preserves.

Once again you are describing the results of excess consumption of alcohol. Excess consumption of any good thing will have bad effects on the body.

More people destroy their lives with alcohol than with folks over eating. Alcohol is a drug that creates drunks that lead them to be abusive to their familes. Alcohol is a drug that kills people daily due to driving under the influence and from the overuse of alcohol breaking down the normal functions of a person's body. Alcohol is addictive. The minor benefits of proper alcohol use pale in comparison to the damage that alcohol does. There will be no alcoholic beverages in Heaven or the Eternal New Earth.

A person who does not want to see that alcohol is a destructive and addictive drug is simply putting their head in the sand. Even unbelieving recovering alcoholics will be able to tell you that fact.

 

[Blank Stair]

I believe it would've been wine, for the same reasons already covered
elsewhere in the thread.

It could only have been wine per Jewish wedding tradition.
Very often people get the wrong idea about alcohol. Wine would have been permitted because alcohol isn't forbidden in scripture.
Abuse of alcohol is.
Very often wine was the staple of drink because fresh water wasn't always available. When scriptures say it was wine it was wine. Not grape juice. Wine isn't grape juice and the scribes certainly would have know the difference.

Oh yes, I have speculated on that myself!

-

It think it is the Christian Gnostics that say it was Jesus wedding to Mary. That's why when the wedding ran out of wine they went to Jesus for help.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not saying Timothy actually was physically running away from any groups that were trying to kill him. What I am saying is that he would have fleed to another town if he had the opportunity to preach elsewhere (If he ran into such a scenario of being persecuted). I am also saying that Timothy was persecuted because it says in Hebrews that he was set free from prison, too.

What you are saying is merely your own informed speculation about what might have happened. It is not based at all on any record of what actually did happen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you are saying is merely your own informed speculation about what might have happened. It is not based at all on any record of what actually did happen.

Yes, that is what I was saying all along. Nowhere did I state that Timothy actually was on the run according to Scripture. However, we do know that he was persecuted, though. We also know that anyone who lives Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, too. It is also silly to assume that Timothy did not have enemies by the work of the LORD that he was doing, either. We also know that Christians were being martyred for their faith. This means no Christian was truly safe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It could only have been wine per Jewish wedding tradition.
Very often people get the wrong idea about alcohol. Wine would have been permitted because alcohol isn't forbidden in scripture.
Abuse of alcohol is.
Very often wine was the staple of drink because fresh water wasn't always available. When scriptures say it was wine it was wine. Not grape juice. Wine isn't grape juice and the scribes certainly would have know the difference.

While the NT saint has a liberty in Christ, Strong alcoholic wine is forbidden in OT Scripture for the OT saint. They were not even to look upon the drink that was alcoholic (Proverbs 23:31). Wine was compared with being a serpent or an adder. Proverbs also says wine is not for kings. Jesus is a king and we are kings and priests. Habakkuk 2:15 says woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.

It think it is the Christian Gnostics that say it was Jesus wedding to Mary. That's why when the wedding ran out of wine they went to Jesus for help.

Not sure what this has got to do with anything. The belief that Jesus made non-intoxicating wine or grape juice goes back to Biblical times and can be traced thru out history.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, that is what I was saying all along. Nowhere did I state that Timothy actually was on the run according to Scripture. However, we do know that he was persecuted, though. We also know that anyone who lives Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, too. It is also silly to assume that Timothy did not have enemies by the work of the LORD that he was doing, either. We also know that Christians were being martyred for their faith. This means no Christian was truly safe.

When is a Christian truly safe in this world? As they say, stuff happens all of the time. Does God cause all this stuff to happen? Is He the originator of sin? Because He created grapes should we speculate that grapes are evil because people allow them to ferment and then drink the alcohol? Should we prohibit and exterminate grapes from the face of this earth?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When is a Christian truly safe in this world? As they say, stuff happens all of the time. Does God cause all this stuff to happen? Is He the originator of sin? Because He created grapes should we speculate that grapes are evil because people allow them to ferment and then drink the alcohol? Should we prohibit and exterminate grapes from the face of this earth?

If God is protecting a believer, there is nothing on this Earth that can hurt them. If a believer is being persecuted either verbally or physically according to God's purpose and plan they are living out the life of Christ and they are glorifying Him. For all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. For we are to walk as He walked.

Is God the originator of sin and evil? No way. Man is the originator of sin and evil. Man was given the choice to obey or disobey. Man chose to disobey and he brought sin and evil into this world.

Are grapes evil? Again, no they are not. It is what man does with the grapes that make it evil. Man can smash them and let them ferment and then drink it in it's fermented state. Gasoline is not evil, either. But if man drinks it, he will not thrive and live a healthy life. Again, it is what man does with God's creation that makes it evil. Hence, why Christ (God) did not create a poison or a substance that damages the body and or causes one to be drunk or not sober and give it directly to them to drink. For there is a difference of God creating things that are forbidden for man (Like the wrong tree in the Garden) versus say directly giving them something that is poisonous to drink.

In addition, we also have to realize that there are things within the creation that represent certain things symbolically. A serpent represents sin in the Bible. Alcoholic wine is represented as a serpent. The Bible says wine bites like a serpent. It says wine is a mocker. The OT saint was told to not even look upon strong wine.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If God is protecting a believer, there is nothing on this Earth that can hurt them. If a believer is being persecuted either verbally or physically according to God's purpose and plan they are living out the life of Christ and they are glorifying Him. For all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. For we are to walk as He walked.

Is God the originator of sin and evil? No way. Man is the originator of sin and evil. Man was given the choice to obey or disobey. Man chose to disobey and he brought sin and evil into this world.

Are grapes evil? Again, no they are not. It is what man does with the grapes that make it evil. Man can smash them and let them ferment and then drink it in it's fermented state. Gasoline is not evil, either. But if man drinks it, he will not thrive and live a healthy life. Again, it is what man does with God's creation that makes it evil. Hence, why Christ (God) did not create a poison or a substance that damages the body and or causes one to be drunk or not sober.

However, that does not mean that there are not things within the creation that do not represent sin and evil symbolically, though. A serpent represents sin in the Bible. Alcoholic wine is represented as a serpent. The Bible says wine bites like a serpent. It says wine is a mocker. The OT saint was told to not even look upon strong wine.

Apparently, according to your speculation, Timothy and the others were not being protected by God because they were continually fleeing. However, you don't need to flee persecution because you are protected by God.

For centuries tomatoes were considered to be poisonous and were forbidden to be eaten because Christians speculated that they were the fruit that Adam and Eve ate in the garden. They symbolized all that was evil.

Would you not agree that it would be best for everybody in the world if alcohol was completely prohibited and every key ingredient in its manufacture was eliminated entirely from existence on earth? That way nobody would ever be able to obtain, much less drink, an alcoholic beverage.

 

[Jadis40]

It was definitely wine with alcohol and not grape juice.

As many other people in this thread have said and pointed out, the fact of that is indicated in the text itself.

9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apparently, according to your speculation, Timothy and the others were not being protected by God because they were continually fleeing. However, you don't need to flee persecution because you are protected by God.

There are times where God says we will be protected and we are not to fear. There are other times where we are to be persecuted for our faith and walk as Jesus walked. It depends on God's plan and will and timing of those types of things. I also already stated my case with TImothy. I did not say Scripture records Timothy as being on the run. What I am saying is that the early Christians were persecuted for their faith. So Timothy was not exactly accepted by everyone and he would be in danger if he disobeyed God and ran full head force into those who were persecuting Christians.

For centuries tomatoes were considered to be poisonous and were forbidden to be eaten because Christians speculated that they were the fruit that Adam and Eve ate in the garden. They symbolized all that was evil.

Whether that is true or not for Bible believing Christians (Who were led by the Spirit) is another matter. What worldly or carnal Christians do is quite another.

Would you not agree that it would be best for everybody in the world if alcohol was completely prohibited and every key ingredient in its manufacture was eliminated entirely from existence on earth? That way nobody would ever be able to obtain, much less drink, an alcoholic beverage.

That is not why I am here. God did not call me to put an end to the wine industry. God merely tells me to preach His Word (and spread the gospel), help the poor, love all people and obey His Word (i.e. Commandments in the New Testament). God will in time bring an end to all sinful things within this world and He is allowing man time to repent. For the pen is truly mightier than the sword (i.e. the Sword of the Spirit is mightier than the Physical Sword). For God's Word has a way of changing people's lives for the better.

For the weapons of our warefare are not carnal but they are spiritual. In other words, we wage a spiritual war and not a physical one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was definitely wine with alcohol and not grape juice.

As many other people in this thread have said and pointed out, the fact of that is indicated in the text itself.

9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not?

Also, the text you quote said this was the first of his signs that reflected his glory. Jesus's blood is sinless and perfect and washes away our sins. Jesus's blood is a picture of the wine. If Jesus's blood represented intoxicating alcohol (Which is a by-product of death because the yeast feeds upon the sugars within the grape like a lion feeds upon it's prey with alcohol being the waste product or poop), then it creates a picture or symbol of his blood representing death and not life. However, the Scriptures say that the life of the flesh is in the blood. Scriptures says that Jesus is life and not death. Scriptures says we are to drink of his blood. Is this blood a picture of death or life? Does not Jesus's blood wash away sins? How can something corrupted wash away something that is dirty? It cannot. Hence, which is why Jesus made juice straight from the grape. Jesus created life and not death or a product of death (i.e. fermentation).

 

[fizzygiraffe]

I think Christians are often afraid to accept the scriptures as written because of the negative image alcohol has conjured in their mind on a personal level. Their personal objection to alcohol or what have you.

When it was said to be wine in the scriptures then Jesus did indeed turn water into wine. How would he violate tradition that he would have grown up with being raised in a Jewish house? When he taught in the temple but he'd violate the tradition set forth for weddings? Hardly so I'd imagine.

Blessings of Betrothal (Kiddushin)
Two cups of wine are used in the wedding ceremony. The first cup accompanies the betrothal blessings, recited by the rabbi. After these are recited, the couple drinks from the cup.

Wine, a symbol of joy in Jewish tradition, is associated with Kiddush, the sanctification prayer recited on Shabbat and festivals. Marriage, called Kiddushin, is the sanctification of a man and woman to each other.

 

[Jadis40]

First, my quote came from the ESV. Even the KJV reads:

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

And Young's Literal Translation? It reads:

11 This beginning of the signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him;

So in three different instances, the author clearly states that yes, Jesus creating wine was a manifestation of his glory.

Good wine does not necessarily mean it was of higher alcoholic content. That's jumping to assumptions. Maybe it simply tasted better, and they could immediately notice that.

Also, if the OT saint was to completely abstain from wine, well, there wouldn't be much left to drink other than water. So were they sober at the wedding? No. It's a joyous occasion, and a time for celebration. Why would they be? The New Testament hadn't even be written yet. Cana, 2000 years ago, was in Galilee, which at that time was part of the Roman Empire.

Think of it this way. On the surface coffee is coffee. But I've had good coffee and I've had bad coffee. Had more to do with the flavor than anything else. A cup of coffee, when brewed correctly, tastes great. But if it's way too strong or has been sitting around a while is horrible.

Also, go back to the Feasts of Israel. To this day, Jews use Four cups of wine in their Haggadah.

 

[fizzygiraffe]

I think splitting hairs now as to what constitution of alcohol was in wine, whether translations identify it as good wine, as opposed to bad wine?, is making a reach to go beyond the scriptures at their word.

Jesus turned water, which if wine was not to be wine then why not drink barrels and barrels of good clean hard to find water while in the desert celebrating a wedding? If wine was not to be the issue, why turn pure water into grape juice?

The scriptures say wine. No translation of scripture says grape juice, bad wine, weak wine, unfortified wine - which isn't wine- , good wine.
Wine! It was tradition, is tradition , for wine to be used in a Jewish wedding.
Jesus, God in flesh, turned barrels of water into wine.
And we argue, no, he didn't?

 

[Standing Up]

Yes, that is what I was saying all along. Nowhere did I state that Timothy actually was on the run according to Scripture. However, we do know that he was persecuted, though. We also know that anyone who lives Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, too. It is also silly to assume that Timothy did not have enemies by the work of the LORD that he was doing, either. We also know that Christians were being martyred for their faith. This means no Christian was truly safe.

Tradition post scripture at its best.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First, my quote came from the ESV. Even the KJV reads:

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

And Young's Literal Translation? It reads:

11 This beginning of the signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him;

So in three different instances, the author clearly states that yes, Jesus creating wine was a manifestation of his glory.

Good wine does not necessarily mean it was of higher alcoholic content. That's jumping to assumptions. Maybe it simply tasted better, and they could immediately notice that.

Also, if the OT saint was to completely abstain from wine, well, there wouldn't be much left to drink other than water. So were they sober at the wedding? No. It's a joyous occasion, and a time for celebration. Why would they be? The New Testament hadn't even be written yet. Cana, 2000 years ago, was in Galilee, which at that time was part of the Roman Empire.

Think of it this way. On the surface coffee is coffee. But I've had good coffee and I've had bad coffee. Had more to do with the flavor than anything else. A cup of coffee, when brewed correctly, tastes great. But if it's way too strong or has been sitting around a while is horrible.

Also, go back to the Feasts of Israel. To this day, Jews use Four cups of wine in their Haggadah.

I believe the Jews drank a wine that was very low in alcoholic content. The wine in the wine skins was a concentrated form of wine that they used in order to mix with water in order to have drinkable wine that would not easily intoxicate them. However, at the Wedding in Cana: Jesus's miracle was unlike this type of wine, though. Jesus made a pure wine or grape juice straight from the clusters of the grapes. This is evident for many reasons according to the Scriptures (As I pointed out before).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Tradition post scripture at its best.

My conclusions are based on my findings in Scripture and not on some church tradition. I do not believe in following Institutional Churches but I believe in the Biblical practice of having fellowship in the homes (Where traditions are far less likely to thrive or control others).